To think Brexit has robbed us of so much?

[elzober]

A friend of mine from America recently obtained citizenship of an EU country due to family links. She's now ready to look for a job and open to anything as she doesn't have a degree but worked in the family agricultural business back home. She's fluent in English.

A few years ago I would have been able to invite her to stay with me here in the UK, help her get established and set her up to apply for one of the many jobs over here. But now I can't do any of that.

The ridiculous part is I know local businesses that are really struggling to recruit, can't find people locally and have struggled with the lack of EU workers since Brexit. Particularly in hospitality, agriculture and travel.

Why did we close the door to people who filled these vacancies and contributed to society and paid taxes?

She would have been a decent tax payer, nice member of the community but she's not allowed in.

She's probably going to Ireland now as apparently there's lots more opportunities there since we became an isolated island.

I will never forgive the Conservatives for this shambles. Don't get me started on the fact that a British passport is now worthless and we've lost our right to live in 27 countries. Madness.

And you don't think that some well-qualified people might be required for the NHS or agriculture etc?

Honestly. 🤦🏻‍♀️🤦🏻‍♀️🤦🏻‍♀️🤦🏻‍♀️🤦🏻‍♀️

Eh

Who said they weren't paying tax?

Again, what are you on about?

I said they were net contributors. I.e. the paid more in tax than they used in services such as the NHS, education, social housing or claiming in benefits.

A large majority of the UK population are net recipients, i.e. they take more out of the system than they put in.

Ergo, EU citizens living and working in the UK were subsidising the UK citizens here, as well as filling critical roles and skills shortages.

Where did I say they didn't pay tax? Do you have any grasp of the very basics of economics?

Of course they’re gasping, you just lost a whole work force of very efficient workers in hospitality, factories, agriculture and careers etc… etc.. who gave no problems and paid their taxes. Now there not enough people to fill those jobs. Factories, restaurants and hospitals are all gasping. And minimum wage was raised a year ago. Still no workers. Were are the miríads of English people waiting to fill those jobs? Are they at home waiting for the minimum salary to be raised again?

No one said anything about what they were taking out in services. The argument was about wages and employers exploiting it.

I think there are bigger issues than it’s not so easy for me to go and work in Spain there are areas that desperately need EU workers but this is also cheap labour we need to be paying people a decent wage regardless of where they are from

the world is a changing palace, I know a number of people (from here and other parts of Europe) who are now going to work in the Middle East and South East Asia people follow money its not here as it once was

I think companies/NHS/social care agencies will most likely start working closer with the government to support workers coming over but is it as attractive here we are about to hit a recession and rocketing prices for fuel but life is much easier here than many countries

Having a British passport is a bonus compared to the vast majority of countries, we are not viewed as being a population who migrates for work or that we may go missing once our visa expires (though met a number who did in Australia)

The minimum wages rise was forced upon employers (rightly so) because wage rises were so stagnant for so long, workers could no longer afford to live on their salaries. Its still not a living wage even now, a living wage British people are wanting yes because they aren't cheap labour like employers have become accustomed to.

Jesus Christ. Obviously the economic contribution of a person to society is calculated by taking their tax contribution and subtracting the costs they exact on services. If the answer is positive, they are adding economic value. If the answer is negative, then despite paying some tax they are net recipients of state subsidy i.e. being supported by those who do put in more economic value than they take out. EU migrants in the UK as a whole fell into the former group. The majority of UK citizens fall into the latter and are being carried by other taxpayers.

This is basic addition and subtraction, how do you not get it??

I can have a more rational discussion than this with my three year old. You have clearly had a propaganda overdose, do not understand economics or tax or international trade and are unwilling to look at facts and learn about these things, either.

How depressing.

I'm out.

A worker doing say 40 hours per week who falls in the tax bracket will be contributing tax etc great and your argumentis valid. Buts its not about that.

The argument was about what they are paid to do that 40 hour week in the first place, which wasn't enough for many years.

@Rosewaterblossom The argument was about what they are paid to do that 40 hour week in the first place, which wasn't enough for many years.

The salary seemed to be enough for the EU workers. I’m a EU migrant myself and all my friends serving coffee and waitressing in restaurants were perfectly making a living, (some of them even saving money).
None of them were living in council flats, buying flat screens or applying for benefits (as you need to pay taxes for 7 years before applying for any benefit if you’re an EU migrant). I really don’t understand what’s the beef with all this “oh the exploited EU migrants!” that some English people love to boast about.

Bloody hell, I will try one more time.

Standards of living in many other EU countries are higher. Per capita income is higher in many. They also had freedom of movement. More UK citizens moved to other EU countries using freedom of movement than EU citizens emigrating from any other EU nation. Yet salaries in those other countries and working conditions did not always deteriorate. If the issue of low salaries and poor working conditions was caused by EU migration, why would it affect the UK and not, say, Denmark or Germany or France? The answer is that they have robust employment legislation, to protect employees.

You have swallowed propaganda and are blaming the wrong people. Stagnation of salaries was primarily due to poor regulation and poor productivity due to a lack of investment or economic strategy. I.e. caused entirely by the UK Government. Hence them feeding you xenophobic lies to make you blame migrants.

Do you grasp logic sufficiently to discern that this demonstrates that the causal link you are claiming between EU migration to the UK and poor salaries is false?

WAKE UP!!

This country has got a shortage of care workers health workers hospitality workers and agricultural workers. And is in a crisis Blame Brexit. We are now stuck on a small island.

You're the one who's not getting it. You're comparing apples with oranges, trying to have an entirely different conversation to the one the other poster is having.

That other poster offered their opinions on why they're for Brexit. They're not talking about the EU workers overall contribution to the economy and whether it's positive or negative. They're talking about lived personal experience of wages being driven down, by those who can afford to maintain their families on less than a British person because their families aren't living in the UK. Their families are living in their home country where the cost of living is cheaper. Or they're young people studying English which will have a positive impact in their life and the wages are just an extra to them and not the main point, so long as they've a roof of some sort over their heads and food in their stomachs. Those migrant workers also aren't as bothered about things like long hours and shitty living conditions because they know a) it's a temporary sacrifice they're choosing to make for a few years for the long-term gain to their personal quality of life once they return home and b) their families are abroad so whilst in the UK they've nobody to return home to at night. How many British people do you know who are willing to live in shared accommodation that's almost uninhabitable when it's not short term because they're a British citizen and not going back elsewhere in a few years? It's not viable. The British people trying to maintain their families in Britain can't survive on the low wages the migrant workers could, they need to rent a flat not a bed in a shared room.

This is what the other poster is talking about. Personal experience in day to day reality of trying to survive, not the overall economy of the UK. People with career jobs literally don't witness this shit occurring at the bottom of the employment food-chain because in their own working life they don't occupy that space.

It's not a question of "educate yourself and get a better job then" either. Firstly, if everybody did that there'd be nobody left to do the low paid jobs. Secondly, the unemployed of Britain need those jobs, they just need them to be decently paid too so they can survive on the wages. Then there's that plentiful group of people who are thick as shit by misfortune of their DNA, they can't get better educated and get a better job, but they still need to be able to survive on the wages of the jobs they can get. And the underprivileged ones who are clever but who also weren't lucky enough to have the opportunity of a decent education due to the area they lived in, the school they attended, being unable to concentrate due to hunger or untreated lice, no heating at home or whatever poverty problem ailed them that week. And then they start work all hours in a job so low paid they choose between heating and eating so there's definitely no money for a college course in the evening, that's assuming they're not working extra shifts in the evening whenever their employer demands it or just because they need the extra hours financially.

Wages need to rise. Rightly or wrongly, some people have seen those people happy and willing to work for low wages as part of the problem in perpetuating those low wages. The thought process goes - remove those people and the emoloyers will have to raise wages if they want to fill vacancies.

Some people don't have time to have a theoretical discussion on the state of the economy. They're too busy trying to survive. That's what you don't understand.

Well said!

At the end of the day, the UK benefitted some people (the wealthy, the most highly educated and skilled) and negatively affected some people (the less wealthy, normal people who just want a job to pay the bills, relatively close to where they live). There were more of the latter than the former, which is why Brexit won and we are out of the EU. I don't really understand why people are still going on about it, over 6 years after the fact.

yFruit pickers now from Malaysia -

You’ve spent 20 years working in a chip shop? If you’re qualified and experienced why wouldn’t you go and get a job that pays more money? There’s an upper limit on what chip shops can afford to pay (especially now, thanks to the cost of fish these days).

It’s shit not being in the EU. I still can’t believe we chucked all that away .

Brexit is such a massive step back. I could write a long list of nuisances I have experienced as a result but not a single benefit.
My only consolation is that we (as a family) have dual citizenship with another EU country and therefore can arbitrate depending on the situation, unlike many of our Brexit voters “friends” and colleagues who are now stuck in the UK with reduced opportunities for themselves and their kids. Most of them are bitterly regretting it.

@HinchcliffeandMurgatroyd

I honestly think a better use of our time would be working out why so many people wanted out and trying to heal the social division.

I think that a lot of it was arrogance. Still believing that the UK rules the world, believing in the great British Empire and not wanting to do something for others (like not wanting to be a net contributor). Remember that the UK already had special rules within the EU. Not adopting the euro. No real open border themselves (asking for passports at the dover crossing and why we were going to the UK). Remember the shitshow about organising to still be able to fly over the EU? Someone literally wrote :"if Heathrow stops, the world stops". As if the EU doesn't have their own large airports. I think that a few years of humility would be good for the UK.

Rejoin when you can act like a normal country again - on our terms, no special terms anymore.

I agree with Rosewaterblossom.

To give an example, one of my BIL works as a welder. Was on a great wage of around £1000 per week (including overtime) as were his colleagues, so all net contributors.

There was a large influx of EU welders into their industry who came over, did group houses shares, and worked for £650 or less per week. These EU workers have gradually replaced the majority of the UK ones. Partially due to the wage drop, and partially due to the EU workers being willing to work any time, anywhere in the UK at a extremely short notice, which was more difficult for the UK workers who have families to work around.

So whilst there still are some net contributors doing the welding jobs, the salary and tax intake is lower, and there’s ended up being many unemployed UK welders most of whom had to claim a whole load of benefits to support their families.

Nothing to do will skills shortages etc. Many professions from plumbing, brick laying, decorating, nannying have seen their previously very good wages cut by a quarter or third due to EU workers who will work for much less.

Agreed, and is if by magic...

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/aug/14/why-uk-farms-recruiting-fruit-pickers-from-7000-miles-away

Brexit shutdown the easy option of getting cheap labour from the EU.

Lo and behold, rather than employers doing the radical thing and improving the going rate for the work, which would increase food prices but would also make such jobs a more credible financial option for hard working Brits, some employers are now shipping in labour from elsewhere.

It's all appears to be going swimming well for the Britannia Unchained brigade...as for everybody else???

I think it was enough to look at call centres etc and it was obvious what will happen.

I will be very frank. It is not just low wages what are the problem. It is also the "I wouldn't do this job" attitude. That is not unique to uk in anyway. Every country has this. Every country has jobs which were traditionally done by someone from countries East/south to them. The attitude won't change. Even if lowskilled jobs pop up to 20 quid they will still have issues hiring. 1-hard jobs, 2-"I wouldn't do that".

If the wages are high enough, they won't have any problems recruiting, no matter how hard/shitty a job it is.

What do you think high enough wage is for a job anyone with 0 qualifications and experience can just walk into...
The wage upping for this will also then force wages of jobs which required qualifications up. Which isn't bad in itself, but wages are not in vacuum.