To have another baby - climate crisis

[MarmaRell78]

We're about to start trying for a second baby, but I keep reading the news and there is so much going on. With climate crisis and war, and wages and cost of living, I cannot guarantee the world I'm bringing kids into. I don't have any regrets about dd1, but really wondering if we should do it again ...
What if the climate crisis means they'll have a really shit life?

YABU - have another baby if you want to
YANBU - it is unethical and stoking the fire and a bad situation to bring an innocent life into

Oh get a grip, have a baby

@33goingon64 I honestly feel it already, born at the very beginning of the new millennium, most my adulthood has been through COVID / recessions etc. Just feel so dejected, it’s got to improve surely? Breaks my heart that I’ll even have to factor climate change in when I want a baby. I’m broody now tbh but we need to save more so we’re a couple of years off yet.

Would a pro/con list help? FWIW, I’m pregnant with No2 right now and guilty about it every day. But I also hope the new one and DD will get along and have each other after DP and I are gone, and will find some solace and security in having each other once their parents are dead and the world is terrible. And from a selfish “save my kids first” POV, DP and I think and plan for the future to hopefully make sure they’re both OK financially, can go to university, will be able to afford a house or for us all to live together – I think multigenerational living is the future. So, heart and head.

In the meantime, yes, it sounds like a lot to teach them! But it’s not as though you have to sit down on day one and drum “surviving a climate apocalypse” into the baby, or the child you have already. With my 3yo, her nursery already do stuff on energy saving and recycling, and she’s very keen on litter picking, and knows we have a bin-bin, a recycling bin, a food waste bin, and “the piles for Daddy” – you know, medicine blister packs, contact lenses, soft plastic, the giant ball of tin foil, all the ballache stuff you can’t recycle kerbside. We’re lucky to have a garden and she likes planting – so far, all the seeds in one hole that then gets yelled at (“GROW!!!”), but baby steps.

My feeling is I want to make changes in our lifestyle anyway, and she’ll pick up on the ways we live and the choices we make without us actively putting in extra effort – the same way she sees that we both work, or that Daddy loves cheese or Mummy wears lipstick; she’ll see that we repair our clothes when they have holes, and peg washing out rather than tumble drying, and take train holidays rather than flying. When she asks stuff about those things, I try to answer honestly but age appropriately. It’s not teaching the way we had to teach potty training, or the constant fucking daily tooth brushing battle, it’s just life, and surrounding her with a sustainable one.

But I do also feel guilty and sad about it all, but I think that’s motherhood anyway: a barrage of conflicting emotions!

I wouldn't have a baby if you already have one, but it is easy for me to say as I already have two adult children. It's only in the last 5-10 years that the effects of climate change has been so obvious, and I could not bring myself to add another innocent child into a world where we will have huge fires, floodings, climate refugees, climate wars, polluted food etc.

My kids are close in age (18 months), but they have never relied on each other for any major support etc. They have parents or friends for that. I don't think that is a good reason to add to the over population. There is also a problem with all those saying, one more won't make a difference. It absolutely will, because as we can see from this thread, a lot of people reason that way so one more turns into to many more.

I understand how you feel. Personally, I see no way back. Two things will combine in the coming decades to cause utter chaos: climate change and overpopulation. And there isn't much we can do about either. We certainly won't solve both in the next 20 years. Unfortunately, they are going to fuel one another. Yes, the birth rate is dropping in several countries (except Africa, where the population is going to double by 2050), but that isn't affecting the total amount. In 1800, there were a billion people. In 1900 it was 1.5 billion. In 2000 it had shot up to 6 billion. And we're now heading for 9 billion. This is just insanity. Nature will fight back and remove us. I think James Lovelock was right about that.

Why do people not talk more about overpopulation? There was a UN panel set up recently on declining fish stocks. Well, isn't it obvious why they are declining? You don't need a degree in maths to work out that 8 billion people will consume more fish than 3 billion (which was the world population in 1960).

My DB hasn’t spoken to me for 20 years. Don’t bank on siblings being a support for each other

So have 2 babies, not 6?

I think if you balance out the enviromental impact of bringing a person into an overpopulated world versus the economic issues that come with the birthrate dropping in this country, two is a reasonable ethical number to have. More (unless they are twins/triplets which you can't help), certainly more than 3 is unjustifiable in my opinion given the current state of the world.
We thought about this long and hard, as have many of our friends. Most have chosen to have two children even if they would have liked more, some have stopped at one, others have had none.
How impacted their life will be by the climate is more of a gamble.
Definitely bring them up to be climate conscious though, we need the next generation to grow up knowing how important this is.

OP, there has been a similar thread on this topic recently which is worth a read through. Read right to the end and watch the videos suggested - might make things seem a little less bleak.

To bring a child into the world currently - www.mumsnet.com/talk/_chat/4599732-to-bring-a-child-into-the-world-currently

I understand where you're coming from, I don't plan to have any more but I worry so much about whether it was the right thing to have them, they're 7 and 9 and the world is such a scary place right now and going to get even scarier if China go ahead with invading Taiwan in the next few years as they plan to.

It feels like things have changed so much for the worse in their short lives but maybe it just feels so bad because I now have two little people depending on me.

Having two kids is ok, just try and be as environmentally friendly as possible (as should everyone kids or no kids). The problem is when people have 4, 5, 6 kids which is higher than the replacement rate.

I would have a second, but feel as though people should now be capped at 2 children.

I felt like this after I had my first and I sustained want to bring anymore children into the world. Selfishly, the need to procreate won and I had 3 more.
I am glad though, as now I know my children will always have eachother, we live fairly well and I spend a good amount of time teaching them about growing food, forraging for food or harvesting rainwater. We still produce an insane amount of rubbish considering how much of an effort I put in to lower it but you cant be zero waste without first being on a very high income in this country

I would do what suits you, OP. Shop second hand, try to buy local and grow/ forrage your own food if you can. That's all anyone can do isn't it?

Two is replacing you and your partner as western consumers so you are not adding to the equation. I think three or more will be unusual soon, even if it's just because many millennials are delaying having children because of financial instability and will run out of time for a third.

Sticking to one might reduce the guilt a bit? I know of lots of people who have chosen to stick with one for various reasons and it seems to make childcare easier as many parents take turns looking after a small group of siblingless friends in the holidays.

It's hard when biology is willing you to have another though. Don't feel hard on yourself if you have a second but equally don't worry about them not having siblings. It's going to be increasingly common and they will all have to make close friends and communities to help deal with the ramifications of climate change. Small family units are unlikely to be the focal point in future.

It isn't, by a long shot. amp.theguardian.com/environment/2017/jul/12/want-to-fight-climate-change-have-fewer-children

I like the thought of your last paragraph and I do hope we move towards a society where the family consist of people you choose to have as a family, rather than clinging on to DNA.

Not sure what point you're trying to make. That article is 5 years old, mentions all the points I've suggested above and incorrectly encourages vegetarianism. Dairy produce is proven to be a massive strain on the environment, so the best way to be sustainable is to shun animal foods entirely, source locally grown fruit and veg where possible and switch to oat or similar milks. Besides this, I feel that having two children to replace ourselves isn't putting as much strain on the environment as the people who have 3 or more kids, eat meat, fly often, send thousands of nappies to landfill and don't know how to recycle!!

The point I’m trying to make is that you can’t offset the C02 of an additional child because you have a vegan diet and use cloth nappies. You’d be doing better than someone with 5, who eats meat and takes flights etc., but worse than a couple that eat meat, run a car, use cloth nappies, take flights, and have one child.

Have the babies you want but justifying it on the basis that you’re not adding to the problem because you don’t consume dairy is disingenuous.

I wouldn't if I was you and that's because I'm really glad that I won't be around in 50 years time with how the planet is going, what's it going to be like for kids born today? It may be an extreme view, but I genuinely hope the human race is left to die out.

I don’t have any kids and don’t want any, so you can have mine!

The terrifying this is encapsulated by the number of posters on this thread who think OP is worried about the impact another child will have on the climate.

No - she’s worried about subjecting another human being to what scientists say is coming (and we should all be ‘worrying’ about that).

I don't think you need to 'get a grip' at all, OP. I think it's a legitimate concern. I'm very worried for my children.

Just came on to say exactly this. Not sure if they don’t read or don’t comprehend.

my children are adults and I worry about what they’ll have to face in their futures. No way would I bring a new human into it and they feel the same.

That's what I worry about and a very big reason for why I don't want kids. If predictions are accurate, then by 2050 we will be seeing areas of our communities flooded very regularly if not permanently. And let's face it, is this government really our best hope at reversing that? Yes there are other areas to live, but it is mainly cities that will be badly effected, where most people live, so where are they going to go? We already have a housing crisis, brought on by the current government! How can they fix that, they are making it worse. I have seen plans for building houses on areas that are already getting flooded, they claim they can sort the drainage. But they won't be the ones living there. They don't really care.

It might just be a bleak outlook on the world, but I don't trust the government's or corporations to do the right thing anymore. They will realise eventually being rich means nothing, by then it will be too late. Although they'll probably be dead and it's their relatives that will suffer so guess they just don't care at all.

We won’t be having a second, simply cannot afford another which is shit!