to be confused about social services

[whentheraincame]

Bit of a long one but it's something I have thought about a long time. There's two narratives:

SS don't do enough; don't act to remove children in obvious danger (happens sometimes of course)

SS are overzealous; remove children from loving homes (going to happen at times, right?)

there was a show over ten years ago called I Want my Baby Back and it was absolutely heartbreaking and admittedly it terrified me. Basically hairline fractures were found in children and parents were blamed for abuse. The argument was (I forget details and could never watch again) from some doctors that these were the result of Vitamin D deficiency (which let's face it, was endemic a while back and in the news loads)

So the argument was those children were wrongly removed. One mother cried "I want my baby" and honestly it's never left me. I'll have a cry about this later as I always do if I think too much about a child being removed from a loving mum.

So my question is if anyone has proper insight. I'm scared of SS in general. Although I actually had involvement with them myself when I left an abusive ex and they came to check I was not going to go back, nothing further happened once they met me - so proof they are fine I guess.

But I remember seeing a lady on the news, well spoken, and saying SS need to return her children who were removed. I had a friend tell me in work once that a friend with undiagnosed autism got the children removed due an incident where one got hurt by the other (which happens. these things happen, children do get hurt and it's often an accident that couldn't be prevented)

I guess I just don't want to see SS as evil child snatchers, and want insight into how they operate in reality and what actually gets children removed from parents' care?

I really hate the "mistakes will be made" narrative.

Of course they will, sometimes.

However, this should happen FAR less frequently. And - when it has happened - there should be far more contrition rather than excuses. And lessons should ACTUALLY be learned and procedures and practices changed, not just empty words as we hear now: the same words and promises every time, that are never fulfilled.

This is often how stuff starts. I don't have a lot of personal experience with social services but have plenty under the loving care of other services which have social workers and healthcare workers in them.

A worker (a GP, apparently, in the above example), who's overworked and stressed and probably not paying as much attention as they should, misinterprets the situation. In this case, they didn't understand that a family friend was the one actually accused by the daughter, but that social services decided that the 5 year old was more likely to be mistaken about which person was responsible than about the exact date it happened, and thought the blame must therefore lie with a family member.

In the quoted post, the worker decides that the mother disbelieves her child and defends her child's abuser.

(I accept you're not at work right now @Sarahcoggles; however, your post was illustrative.)

The way services seem to work, the rest follows from there:

Another worker, who trusts the first worker's judgement and professionalism, reads that the mother is trivialising the abuse and trying to protect the abuser, and takes the appropriate actions. The mother is confused, hasn't been told exactly why these things are happening, and is upset and doesn't want these "appropriate actions" to happen. So she's not engaging with the process, and this is written down, along with a copy of the accusations of abuse minimisation and abuser protection.

Someone eventually explains to her why these things are happening — she's minimised abuse and protected an abuser so she's a risk to her child. She argues back that she's done no such thing.

The previous report is copied over — mother disbelieves child, minimises abuse, continued to allow the family abuser to access her child for a while, didn't engage with the processes designed to protect her child, and now can be described as argumentative and combative.

Workers go into every interaction with her expecting a mother who's noncompliant, wilfully covers up abuse, and doesn't want to engage with services, and workers have the attitude you'd expect of them in that situation — and the mother, bewildered, reacts badly. By this time there's a mountain of evidence against her, any little thing she does wrong is catalogued by workers keen to ensure they have an the evidence they can about her failures.

And she still won't "admit" that her family member abused her child.

How does the mother get out of this nightmare? It's easy enough for it to happen.

Sorry, meant to underline member there at the end of the second paragraph; not sure why it didn't work.

This.

I remember it too.

IIRC the programme (a Panorama one?) involved several different cases of children/babies being removed from their parents, not all relating to fractures. The case of the baby did definitely point towards a likely Vitamin D deficiency, but the SS refused to even confirm whether that was being investigated. In all of the cases, the children/babies weren’t allowed to be placed with a family member, and were adopted.

I’ve seen children taken and it’s heartbreaking each time. But- the factors coming into play are always the same- drugs, violence, mental health and lots of kids with a single mother, not taking sick kids to hospital.

I am sure the cost of living crisis will mean more kids going hungry, more neglect. If the parents have to work three jobs as certain people are suggesting; who will look after those kids? How will they keep a spotless show home after 10-12 hour days?

I work with babies and quite frequently am involved with the care of a baby that is either going into foster care or adoption. I also work with babies that I personally feel would be better cared for in foster care or given the chance to be adopted, but SS have decided to keep them with their family.

Hindsight.

Posted too soon.

I would say hindsight is why people have one view or the other about SS. They hear about a child being harmed by their parents after SS haven’t taken action - SS haven’t done enough. They hear about a baby being taken from parents who are later found to be innocent of any wrong doing - SS are too heavy handed and unfair.

They have to make very difficult decisions, and are also human. It’s inevitable they won’t always be the right decisions.

No I am completely unaware of that.

@ClumpingBambooIsALie

I think that was a brilliant and clear post.

I had SS involvement when there was an unexplained bruise on my DS. When he was 1. To which I got it looked it as it was in a strange place. Cue the kids having to stay with mum. I was allowed to stay to as I was breastfeeding as long as I was supervised the whole time. Lots of investigations and surveys. I bent over backwards to assist as I wanted to know what had happened too. We never got any answers. But the kids was deemed to be safe in my care everything they needed was met. Glowing recommendations from the SS. They really helped with everything. Explained it every step of the way. It was a very stressful time but I understand why they have to do it. I don't blame them, they was just doing their jobs.
Didn't hear from them again untill I got pregnant again. They just checked it made sure all was still good. Then never heard from them again.

Just Echoing other posters that if you engage and help then the chances of DC getting taken are quite low.

I have to say I find your attitude repugnant, because it’s really clear that you don’t expect Social Workers ‘mistakes’ to have any actual impact on your life.

At some level you think that the families ripped apart by ‘mistakes’ probably deserved it anyway. You are so blasé, it’s actually vile.

and do you know what- a blame culture would be healthy. Social Workers are slippery as hell when it comes to taking responsibility. All “we’re so knowledgeable and we’re the experts”, right up to the point of having to stand by their actions- at which point, miraculously, it’s nothing to do with them and “the courts make the decisions.”

I’ve noticed that re blame.

You never see a social worker say actually you know what, sometimes we arse up.

Yes i agree. We can’t just accept these mistakes and families being ripped apart and the trauma they go though when sw get it wrong and subject them to CP investigations or worse wrongful child removal. SS seem to want to cast the net wide to catch all abuse but in the process they catch innocent families and that’s not ok.

I work in child services, but am not a SW.

not once has a name come up on a list where I’ve thought “no, that can’t be right. Not them”.

DV or alcohol/substance abuse are the common factors.

Yes, THANK YOU, that’s exactly what I mean. Sometimes parents have no hope when SWers misinterpret something and then pass that on the next SW and I look like I’m changing my story.

Its a shame @Sarahcoggles didnt answer my question as to why she made the quite offensive assumption that I disbelieved my DD. She has posted since and ignored my question.

Jellycatspyjamas
UndertheCedartree
There is a lot of input for the children from different people when they are in care.
my foster children have my family, their Sw, my Sw, an IRO, school nurse, designated safeguarding officer in school, guardian.
if all of these are doing their job properly the child should receive all of the support they need.
If one is failing it should be brought up by the others. I have no problem in doing this as the child is my priority.
I have had children who I have involved other agencies with including camhs and while this is hard I’ve found that it’s easier with a looked after child, I’ve also found it easier to get support in education than others have with their birth children.
I have worked with excellent Sw and I’ve had some in my home that I wouldn’t trust with a goldfish, as in all walks of life there’s good and bad but if everyone else around the child is working well together they should be able to support the child with everything they need.
The trauma of being ripped from their family may never leave these children, they don’t know that their lives are bad as it’s all they’ve known but if all of the professionals around them are working together this gives them a better chance to change their lives for the better

I'm sure I've made plenty of mistakes (in fact I know I have) — but that's kind of my point. Good, well-intentioned people make mistakes, but if the system is set up such that mistakes are copied, repeated, amplified and compounded, terrible things can happen. And even if it's "only" a few months and everything's sorted out, it's an appalling trauma for the family involved. Fearing you're going to lose your child is the kind of trauma that can cause long-lasting psychological damage. And if the children are old enough to understand and can't be 100% shielded from what's going on (and when their parents are so worried, it's going to be impossible to hide that completely), it can cause them long-lasting damage too.

The system has to be changed so that errors and miscommunications don't get copied and re-copied, and so that services don't actively make things worse. Even if damaging and ultimately unfounded investigations are very rare, when it's found that they've happened they need to be analysed to work out what went wrong and where, and systems changed. Not the "lessons will be learned" mantra but actually learning and changing. Y'know, like they want parents to do, to avoid causing harm to innocent people.

People talk like social services can investigate you, you're exonerated or you make the changes they tell you to, you get to keep your kids, it's all good right? If it didn't actually need to happen, well, a few months of having to play the game and a bit of admin hassle hasn't done any harm, and anyway are you saying it isn't worth the minor inconvenience if we can save just one child from abuse? And cases where it wasn't warranted are so rare they don't matter, thresholds are so high that nobody gets social services involvement unless things are really bad, so you must be a pretty bad parent just to have had them involved for more than a quick check TBH.

And I just don't believe that, given my experiences with state services.

Through work, I’ve seen a fair amount of “good” parents who have just had bad luck turn themselves inside out for SS maintaining job, spotless house, clean dc with homework done each day etc and become a shell of themselves in the process. They can’t admit being anything else than blissfully happy because they don’t know who has reported them, they no longer trust anyone and have to keep their guard up and this carries on for years. The whole process can be hugely traumatic for both kids and parents. I don’t have any suggestions on how to change it though.

This is exactly what happened to us. My DC had a small bruise and I wanted to get it checked. I had a 4 yr old at the time so was worried maybe a bit of sibling jealousy but never thought anything sinister.

We did everything they asked of us too but unfortunately it really depends what kind of social worker you have. If you have one that is kind and honest then as long as you cooperate you'll usually be okay. If you have one that has I healed trauma or emotional damage then all hell breaks loose.

I'm so glad in your case it was pretty straight forward although I expect still very worrying

Yanbu. Just how they get it wrong by leaving obviously abused and neglected children to suffer they equally, if not more so, remove children from loving families who either just need a little support or off the back of a malicious referral. If you think the fact it goes through court makes it fair you couldn't be more wrong. The amount of lies and pure perjury with zero evidence judges side with just because they take the LAs word over families is astounding. People with legal aid solicitors rarely receive fair represention.
Once they decide your children are marketable for forced Foster care or forced adoption they get their claws in. Foster care in the UK alone is a 1.7 billion pound industry.
In fact they are now removing children under 'future risk of emotional harm' so the children never have to have even been exposed to anything they can just say they might be in the future (which surely just being alive your at risk of some harm?) for people who think because a families have ss involvement for a year or so then have their children removed means they havent tried hard enough to make changes or they have lots of support and chances, if only that were the truth. What happens is sw frequently change the goal posts over and over again. 'just do abc and we'll close the case' family does abc 'oh no I didn't mean do abc, I meant do def and we'll close the case' and repeat for 2 years.
I was removed from my mum when I was 12, she got in to a spat with the school regarding hairstyle threatened them with the papers so they ran off to ss citing suspicions of neglect (was never neglected or abused at all) the sw just constantly lied in the reports about everything. She failed the parenting assessment because 'mother prioritises pet over child' the reality was she switched the oven on to make dinner and whilst it was warming up fed the dog. So because the pet had technically eaten first basically. That's just one example of a hundred lies and game playing incidents. Then in the Foster placement I was actually abused emotionally and physically and when I showed the same social worker who removed us my bruises she just took a long loud sniff up her big nose and walked away. They broke me and my mum for no reason, when we saw her at contact she always put a brave face on but she was a shell of her former self.
I'm on several support groups and people's stories, most of which are going now are astounding I'm talking 50-100 a day with all the same old tricks. There are petitions which people push but no one including myself dare put their real names on so they never get anywhere.
The general consensus in the groups of why this happens to innocent parents and not the ones who need it is fear. Fear on the social workers part. They leave the kids with the scary families without intervention because they darent go in there and confront them on their own. They fear retribution if they take them. The compliant ones that go along with them aren't as big of a threat.
Also I think the fact Foster carers are receiving up to 800 a week per child is disgusting. How is the average birth parent supposed to compete with that when providing quality of life? Holidays, extra tutoring and extra curriculum activities, posh houses? Of course they can't? Then your just going to get tonnes who are just in it for the money not because they actually give a shit about the kids. And plenty of other ones out there who do it to look good to people they know (like mine) but behind closed are just total, evil c u next Tuesdays. There's one Foster mother who beat her 9 year old Foster child black and blue and didn't even get jail time.

Obviously I'm aware that it's not all social workers, Foster carers etc are like this but the problem is way way more prevelent than general society realises. I don't think the UK is ready to believe the corruption that is going on.

I wasn't sure if I should comment as I don't have the best experience with ss. I think you can get some wonderful social workers who genuinely care. However, I also KNOW there are some on the opposite side to that. Sorry, this is a bit long...

My children and I had the worst 2 years because of them. What started with the school making a referral because my dd would go into school hungry (refused breakfast but always took something in for break) turned into me fighting against them removing my kids and placing them with their dad who never bothered to see/pay for them, was living in Emmaus with severe mental health issues, drinking and smoking weed.

On paper, I was all of those things and I was not allowed to argue with their statements. They refused to acknowledge my drug tests, refused the private mental health assessment I had done by an NHS practitioner and said it had to be someone they choose, and they wanted me on antidepressants that my gp wouldn't prescribe because I wasn't depressed (I was by the end). And they checked my bank statements and shopping receipts monthly.

In the CP meetings, the chair person shouted me down when I tried to argue against the accusations and told me I wasn't allowed. That I just needed to accept I was these things and needed help, or they would put forward that I was in denial, therefore, I was neglecting my children. They made their point continuously that they don't need to PROVE any of this, they just need to have concerns of neglect now, or in the future.

It ended when they turned up at their dad's whilst he was high, surrounded by bottles and on his last warning at Emmaus. I put in the biggest complaint about this and the fact that whilst on CP I hadn't seen or heard from the SW in 2 months, despite them having 'grave concerns' and were supposed to come twice a week, once unannounced.

They rushed through an emergency meeting and dropped the case like a hot potato and after coming off CIN I have not heard a single word from them since. The only time they softened to me in that whole process was when I broke down in tears and was on the verge of giving up. It was almost like satisfaction that they had broken me.

Sorry, but not all SW are doing their best in bad circumstances. Some DO have an agenda, although, I'm not comfortable in guessing what that agenda actually is or why.

That really is spot on as to how it seems to work.

It is interesting - I had another thread I started about the absolutely awful case of Leiland James Corkhill, which got very defensive very quickly. Social workers on that thread were adamant that mistakes were not made, and if mistakes were made at all, these mistakes were tilted towards children not being removed quickly enough (or at all) rather than birth parents sometimes being treated unfairly.

Like on this thread, various women posted to share their experiences, but - hate to say this - we are shouted down, sometimes by the pro-adoption lobby and sometimes by social workers.

Its a concern to me because if there is a steadfast determination to accept that people can be naive, people can misjudge scenarios and motives, naive and inexperienced and yes, sometimes, plain wrong.

This concern is perhaps because in many ways, the people who become victims of it are in the worst possible position. Often, they have little or no money. They live in areas that are poor and run down. They often have a basic education. Support is often lacking.

And if when they speak up we ignore them and say ‘there must be more to it’ (I lost count of the number of times this was posted following the interview with Leiland James’ birth mother) and ‘social workers aren’t baby snatchers you know’ and so on - what do they do then?

I was afraid I was going to be referred to SS after dh had a fall with ds in his arms.

Ds was 9 weeks old, dh was holding him against his chest with his face outwards. He had taken a dummy for the first and last time. Dh fell off a
step and landed partially on ds. The dummy shattered cutting ds’s mouth and half of his face had swollen up and bruised.

Called 999 and got him seen to asap. Hospital were really reassuring and after a few hours we were released. I thought we would get a SS referral because of his injuries but we didn’t. After 24 hours, the swelling went down. After 48, the bruising had gone and you couldn’t tell anything had happened

Omg this is awful I'm so sorry 😞 it can be utterly traumatic to say the least. Your right though, they make their own opinions of you, yes OPINIONS and just run with it.

I remember speaking to the police about it because i was mortified and the police said the sad thing is, the police have to be beyond reasonable doubt that something occurred. They need to have proof and everyone is innocent until proven guilty.
Whereas social workers just have to have doubt. Which could just be their personal opinion. 51/49% is enough for them to go full steam ahead with what they "think".
That's what the police told me anyway and I'll never not be afraid.