To expect fair application to faith school?

[ordinaryriffraff]

I am slightly disturbed regarding a statement made by MIL.
She suffers from delusions of grandeur so please can you help?
She recently suggested that the school governors and head teacher go through applications made to local faith based school and are thus able to "keep riff riff out".

Can any teachers, especially head teachers let me know if this is actually something that happens??? Or is this yet another fantasy in MILs head?

You have friends who keep their children in the house to abuse them? Have you reported them to social services?

And I sneer because faith schools get better results when religious people are segregated and discriminating on the grounds of religion. Seems pretty obviously wrong to me.

Obviously she's full of shit, but it's a shame we still have faith schools anyway.

The intention was to joke, not to sneer.

And to remind how church schools were the backbone of education in this country before the state became involved (less than 100 years ago) and that CofE schools embraced the change - with many becoming VC (no faith criteria) and most others cooperating with the state sector as VA (most RC ones opted to be VA, and schools of other faiths post-dated the founding of the state sector).

So there always has been a long-standing ethos of provision of education for all in the parish. Oversubscription criteria, and what is allowed/not allowed was decided by the Government, not by the schools themselves.

But population densities have shifted, and in some areas they physically cannot accommodate more pupils (without a miracle of the sort Jesus could do) so other schools need to be founded to deal with the rising numbers. Some of those may be faith schools, and in the 00s there was a number of (long overdue) new state schools of Hindu and Islamic faiths (who, like VA church schools could set their own entrance criteria, including faith criteria, as academies/free schools can be their own admissions authority).

If there is real demand for more faith schools, then parents need to make their voices heard when plans for school places for the medium and long term are being discussed by their councils.

I always find the faith question interesting in terms of schools.

i "gamed" the system to get dd into what was then an excellent CoE infant school. Two years later it was shocking and did an in-year transfer to a RC school which suited her better. That gives us a feeder guarantee to a brilliant RC secondary school, but it's miles away. I want her to go to the CoE locally. So as of next month it's back to church we go to get the requisite 12 months in. Otherwise we'd be last on the criteria for that school. We may get in on distance; but DD wants to go there. So we've had a discussion about what that means in terms of commitment to pretty much guarantee us the place. Which is twice per month, for 12 months.

I agree with previous posters who say it does exclude children where their parents aren't on the ball, or can't organise themselves.

Well this would mean all faith schools are white middle class.

Are they?

No. In our area there's a massive excess of faith schools (CofE and RC) versus the number of practicing Christian families. What happens is the nice village faith schools are oversubscribed - lots of big cars clogging the villages at drop off and pick up time. These can apply the 'faith' (ie church attendance & baptism criteria). The faith schools in the poorer urban areas aren't oversubscribed and so can't apply these types of selections. (I'm not sure but would guess many of the Cof E ones are now the totally state funded type rather than nearly totally state funded ones and so can't discriminate like that anyway).

The former with selection are generally high in the league tables, the latter low. It's not the 'faith ethos' of the school which makes the difference, it seems. What a surprise.

selecting / excluding children on the basis of their parents faith is an APPALLING practice for any state funded school. I cannot believe this still happens in 2022.

I used to be a Governor at our local Catholic school (not Catholic myself, but our closest school). Parents had to submit an application form to the school in addition to the Local Authority application so quite a few people seemed to think the school could choose who to admit. Every year there were parents who sent lengthy covering letters explaining how they would be prepared to help the school, how clever their child is, how much their child wanted to be with their friends already at the school etc etc plus quite a few who seemed to be think the open evening was some sort of audition. In reality there was a published set of criteria that were rigidly applied by the school business officer and reviewed for fairness by a Governor. The Head did not see the list of applicants until the selection process was complete and definitely didn't have any discretion to admit or reject a pupil.

All schools have admission criteria though, don't they? It's not just faith schools. From what I understand of some specific areas in North, South and West London, some schools attract DC from a particular demographic because their parents can afford to buy houses of £1m+ to ensure they are within the 300m catchment area when the criteria is based on distance.

Well this would mean all faith schools are white middle class.

Perhaps our school is an anomaly if that is usually the case. My DC's soon to be Year 1 class in a faith school is about 40% white, 60% non-white.

I was referring to Christian schools, which make up the majority of faith schools in the UK.

No. Christian schools are mainly ethnic-minority where I live, at least. I’m in a multicultural area. While they may not have any/many Muslim pupils, for example, Christian schools are ethnically diverse. The majority of pupils are either from an African background or an Afro-Caribbean background -because these are the groups with a strong and very active faith-based traditional culture.

I was referring to Christian schools, which make up the majority of faith schools in the UK.

So was I. The white DC at our RC school tend to be of Irish, Italian, Polish or Greek origin. Very few English. The non-white contingent is from various African countries heritage (though some DC mixed with white), South Asian (Goan, Sri Lankan etc).

OP I will not ask you to list the other strange fantasies your MIL has. Others have described the process well.

Five year olds can be riff raff???

Have you though? That was your claim that you knew people who can’t go to church because of that.

Religious kids getting preference for schools of their religion is fair enough imo. That’s what they’re for. The fact that they may get better marks overall (but not necessarily individually) is incidental. You’re not entitled to go to a Jewish school or Muslim school just because it has the best marks. One reason many Jewish, Muslim and catholic parents want to send their children to religious schools is to protect them from people who sneer at their religion and culture.

As many have said @OperaStation practising Christians don’t tend to be white English mc people anymore in the uk.

No they have to follow the published criteria, although the one really sought after school I worked in, the head did all the parent tours before application and if the parents weren't the "right fit", she would make sure they left with a clear understanding that it wasn't the right school for their child

Intolerance towards religious education and people because you’re not religious is APALLING in my opinion. Can’t believe it still happens in 2022.

You’ve confusing an assertion that state funded schooling should not be allowed to discriminate on the basis of faith with an intolerance towards religious education.

I have no problem in faith schools selecting on faith as long as they pay for the privilege.

What makes me absolutely livid is that I have to pay for faith schools that my children are excluded from 🤬.

Absolutely no state funded schools should select on the basis of the church their parents attend (or pretend to attend).

That was your claim that you knew people who can’t go to church because of that.

I really didn't claim that.

it depends where you live. But the ones who game the system to get into good schools are.

So how would you replace VA schools?

Remember, those schools are owned by the churches. They are currently operating in the state system, but they don’t belong to the state.

So they become private or close.

Where do all the pupils go?

Even if nationalised, the land and buildings have to be bought out at a fair price.

The schools budget is about to break anyhow, and there’s no obvious source of cash from elsewhere in the government (NHS needs max right now too, social care needs more both generally and to ease NHS pressure, and defence - the budget that’s usually raided - is to be increased because of the was in the Ukraine.

If this were to have been attempted, then perhaps in the 00s when we thought we were rich it would have been the time (but the Blair govt opened more faith schools - getting rid really wasn’t their thing). I don’t see it as making its way to the top of govt spending priorities right now, and probably not in the next 5-10 years either.

"if the parents weren't the "right fit", she would make sure they left with a clear understanding that it wasn't the right school for their child."

This is a frequently used 'tool' by schools who don't want children with sen as well.

Spelin and 'obbys e.g. scrumping and hare coursing,