Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To expect fair application to faith school?

199 replies

ordinaryriffraff · 14/08/2022 18:34

I am slightly disturbed regarding a statement made by MIL.
She suffers from delusions of grandeur so please can you help?
She recently suggested that the school governors and head teacher go through applications made to local faith based school and are thus able to "keep riff riff out".

Can any teachers, especially head teachers let me know if this is actually something that happens??? Or is this yet another fantasy in MILs head?

OP posts:
NCHammer2022 · 15/08/2022 09:05

OperaStation · 14/08/2022 18:40

The process is managed by the council. They apply the schools admission criteria.

Your mum’s not completely wrong though. It is essentially a way of selecting mostly white middle class families who have the time and resources to play the system.

My DD is going to a faith school which is far more diverse than the local population because the church attendees in the parish are a much more diverse population - far more African, eastern european and Spanish and Italian families. We’re not people playing a system, we’re people practicing our faith.

NeverDropYourMooncup · 15/08/2022 09:07

Starseeking · 14/08/2022 22:50

Faith schools have admissions criteria just like any other school, the difference is that the admissions criteria excludes those DC who's parents lack the time, resources or wherewithal to ensure their DC meet the criteria.

At our school, RC DC must be baptised in an RC church, and not in the year before admission. At a stroke, this rules out anyone who hasn't organised themselves to do this.

Next, the DC have to have a form signed by the priest to say they regularly attend church. Priest will only sign this if DC has a certain number of stamps in their Sunday School book. Again, this rules out anyone who hasn't organised themselves to do this.

Then there is the usual criteria of looked after DC, SEN DC, teachers DC and siblings, all of whom must also meet the above criteria, before any other DC are considered. From memory, our school has about 8 different priority listings in the admissions criteria; I don't think they ever get past number 3 or 4 before all the places are filled (2 form of 30 entry).

My DC's school is very diverse, which I was pleased to see, and all the DC I have met are well-mannered and polite, even at their young ages. Our school is outstanding, and I know from discussions with the teachers that parent support and engagement is extremely high, which also helps the DC do well.

Your MIL may have come to her conclusion based on an entirely different thought process, however faith schools admissions criteria is reviewed and approved by the governors on an annual basis, and any DC's parents could appeal if the governors have not applied the policy correctly.

I'm assuming you're talking about primary, as all children who have taken First Holy Communion irrespective of whether they were baptised in an RC church or another trinitarian denomination are Catholic under Canon Law.

If they haven't arranged a Baptism until just before school application time, that's unfortunate. Mainly because, as is required of and believed by Catholics, their child has therefore not benefitted from what is perceived to be the protection of their soul. Can't imagine that there are priests who would say 'ah, don't worry about it, you can do it just before the school applications are due'.

Attendance for a priest reference, well, it's not as though there are only Masses on Sundays.

Children with the school named on an EHCP get a place irrespective of their faith and go to the top, no application necessary, it's just an order. That's the law.

The law then states that looked after child or children adopted from care are given first priority. It's legal for children who are catholic or in the care of a catholic family to have the very highest ranking and for other looked after or adopted from care children to be ranked below catholic applicants.

There's often an exceptional circumstances category. It often forms the main part of discussions in Admissions Committee meetings - is there evidence of the circumstances, is it likely on the balance of probabilities that the circumstances are as presented, is it enough to give them priority over all other applicants, is it likely to be successful upon appeal (so it's less stressful for the applicant to just do it right first time), is it the right thing to do? This can be things like having a terminally ill parent, being a refugee, being very unwell themselves but not with an EHCP, emergency moves fleeing violence - you know, actual exceptional circumstances. They usually do not have to be catholic.

After that, it's usually siblings and then all other catholic applicants. Catholic applicants can be further placed in order on the basis of attendance at Mass, when they were baptised. Not all places do this, though. But not all places are hugely oversubscribed.

Teachers' children can't be subject to the Catholicity requirement, as it's not legal to refuse a job to a non Catholic (beyond certain SLT positions) and that would create a two tier staff situation. If staff children are not in the published oversubscription criteria, they are just dealt with as any other applicant.

After that, it's people in the process of becoming catholic, other faiths, then no faith or no faith evidenced.

Each applicant is ranked within their category on the basis of distance. It's the only legal tiebreaker and the distance is usually one provided by the local authority. So the PP who didn't get a place was likely because they lived further away, assuming they were also of the same faith and all other things were equal. It's highly unlikely to be due to racism - if nothing else, if anybody were to attempt to remove non white observant catholics from applications in the majority of urban areas, they'd find themselves undercapacity in September. And fired immediately afterwards.

Catholic schools tend to be more diverse in terms of both ethnicity and income level. Their kids come from further away, which reduces the effect of the school being in an expensive area - in some ways, it's a leveller that a non faith school in an expensive area doesn't have - and it's quite possible that there are a larger number of Muslim families are able to get a place in that school, depending upon how oversubscribed they are, which means that poorer families of other faiths also have a good chance of not having to go to the nearest LA school, the one that's undersubscribed and may have a poorer Ofsted rating.

Whether this is right or wrong is moot; but it is what is legal. Any stories about governors getting their friends in, having to do the flowers, make donations to the church or school or staff pulling strings is bollocks. Utter bollocks.

NCHammer2022 · 15/08/2022 09:09

At our school, RC DC must be baptised in an RC church, and not in the year before admission. At a stroke, this rules out anyone who hasn't organised themselves to do this.

If parents haven’t “organised themselves” to baptise their child by age 3 then it’s obviously not really a priority for them, so it’s perfectly reasonable for the admission criteria of a faith school to put them lower down the list than families who do have their faith as more of a priority.

x2boys · 15/08/2022 09:11

lunar1 · 14/08/2022 19:18

I applied to a faith school for my children and didn't get a place, we were last on the criteria points despite living a three minute walk away. Our next door neighbours children got places for the same year-they are one house further away than us. There was no difference in our eligibility.

No idea if it was a factor, but I walk past every day, it's a very white school. My neighbours are white, we are a mixed family which would be evident from our surname.

My son goes to a RC school his school is very mixed ,I would say at least 50% of the pupils are not white.

Macarena1990 · 15/08/2022 09:22

NCHammer2022 · 15/08/2022 09:05

My DD is going to a faith school which is far more diverse than the local population because the church attendees in the parish are a much more diverse population - far more African, eastern european and Spanish and Italian families. We’re not people playing a system, we’re people practicing our faith.

Same here. My children’s faith schools are very diverse too. They are mixed race themselves!

I also disagree with claims that church attendance is only possible for the middle classes.. mass isn’t just a Sunday morning event and it’s free. In fact almost everything our church does (with exception of fetes and toddler group) is free and involves food!

Canyousewcushions · 15/08/2022 09:23

The faith school that I attended in the 1990's was CofE, and had a very few token places that went to church-going children from other denominations. For the non-CofE is basically came down to whose parents were on the most church rota's and therefore showing dedication.

The school is in a town which is very mixed in terms of race and and income, but when I was there it is was a VERY white and middle class school as it effectively self-selected through the entrance criteria- I don't believe for a minute that the applications from the CofE families were individually sifted, though the 5 or 6 non-CofE places were because it was a competition to be a dedicated church-goer.

In the late 90's/early 00's they had obviously rethought, and massively increased the number of places available to other denominations. This suddenly meant it became open to children from, for example, gospel churches, and thankfully the school is now far more reflective of the area that it's in.

Depending on the entrance criteria for the school, there may be a lot of self-selection going on, but it shouldn't come down to the headmaster's perception of postcodes- if a sensible and objective reason can't be given for decisions the school would be opening itself up to all kinds of legal/discrimination cases.

GETTINGLIKEMYMOTHER · 15/08/2022 09:25

My Gdcs go to a C of E primary. Dd and SiL are not churchgoers, never have been, and AFAIK admission is handled by the council and depends on catchment area, plus presumably if there’s already a sibling there.
I’ve never heard of parents being assessed to keep the ‘riff-raff’ out! Not at state schools, anyway!

BTW I once read that ‘riff-raff’ comes from the Anglo-Saxon and originally meant ‘sweepings of rags’. Thought you’d all like to know.🙂

Change123today · 15/08/2022 09:30

Our Catholic school is mixed.
They also have children attend with EHCP that are non faith and attend the school. I would guess around 60% white, of that 60% there is a high number of settled travellers from the area.

Part of the application you do have submit a baptism certificate but the school still has to adhere to the process and the admission criteria. I remember talking to the head teacher and one year they had a high number of boys - 2 form entry around 45 boys to 15 girls - was very hard to balance it out - she said she could do with some more girls applying!

Also the numbers have to be shared so you can easily see the numbers under each criteria and distance etc.

MarshaMelrose · 15/08/2022 09:30

NCHammer2022 · 15/08/2022 09:09

At our school, RC DC must be baptised in an RC church, and not in the year before admission. At a stroke, this rules out anyone who hasn't organised themselves to do this.

If parents haven’t “organised themselves” to baptise their child by age 3 then it’s obviously not really a priority for them, so it’s perfectly reasonable for the admission criteria of a faith school to put them lower down the list than families who do have their faith as more of a priority.

Exactly.
I don't understand the comment, "they haven't organised themselves". Surely if they're attending church every week, they'd be speaking with the priest on a regular basis and baptism is so important, it wouldn't be a matter of organisation, it would be just something you do. I don't think I'm overly religious, but I had my children christened as babies because it's just part of my faith and I believe for my family it's the right thing.
If someone hasn't had their child baptised, I'd be thinking that they don't attend church regularly and they're not that interested/aware of their religion.

spanieleyes · 15/08/2022 10:05

We are a Church of England school, faith doesn't appear anywhere in our admissions criteria at all. Our diocese abolished such criteria for the vast majority of faith schools in their area. We are still a faith school though!

Starseeking · 15/08/2022 13:16

@NeverDropYourMooncup Yes, I'm talking about primary, as that's the only stage I know about so far. My apologies regarding mentioning teachers DC as a criteria, that was in one of the private schools I looked at; it definitely isn't in our criteria.

@NCHammer2022 @MarshaMelrose Regarding people organising themselves; I probably described that incorrectly. I meant that if people are truly of that particular religion, they would know the entry requirements and have already done what was needed as a matter of course. Both my DC were baptised within 3 months of birth. Anyone trying to game the system would be caught out when it came to school applications, because they wouldn't have met this requirement. So the entrants to religious schools self-select to some extent, although that's not due to random decisions made by governors, there's a process. I hope that clarifies.

DahliaMacNamara · 15/08/2022 13:21

spanieleyes · 15/08/2022 10:05

We are a Church of England school, faith doesn't appear anywhere in our admissions criteria at all. Our diocese abolished such criteria for the vast majority of faith schools in their area. We are still a faith school though!

Similarly, we've only ever had faith as an admissions criterion for a handful of the years I've served as a governor. It's about to be removed, as parents so rarely apply on that basis, and those that have would have been successful on distance and/or siblings anyway. It seems unnecessarily restrictive and therefore offputting when our remit should be to serve the community.

meditrina · 15/08/2022 14:53

spanieleyes · 15/08/2022 10:05

We are a Church of England school, faith doesn't appear anywhere in our admissions criteria at all. Our diocese abolished such criteria for the vast majority of faith schools in their area. We are still a faith school though!

All VC faith schools have community criteria (no faith ones) using those standard to the LA, unless an academy (but still likely to be similar)

MrsTerryPratchett · 15/08/2022 15:18

I also disagree with claims that church attendance is only possible for the middle classes.. mass isn’t just a Sunday morning event and it’s free. In fact almost everything our church does (with exception of fetes and toddler group) is free and involves food!

Actually my friends who are working class do work more on the weekend or evenings. McDonald's, the shopping centre, the DIY shop, all places they work, all open on a Sunday. And then there's kids whose parents are too hungover or high. Ones who simply don't care about education. Ones who keep their children in the house as much as possible because they're abusing them.

I say again, any hoops, no matter how ridiculous, will separate out the most vulnerable children. If you said they have to come and count to ten in French on a Wednesday at 4.30pm in April, you'd lose most of the children with and the abused/neglected ones as well. As well as those with exhausted or depressed parents.

What would Jesus do? Let all the children in. I don't think he'd have admissions criteria, do you? And if he did, it would be TO let the vulnerable children in. I'm not Christian though, what would I know?

NumberTheory · 15/08/2022 15:44

The idea that schools are just selecting for white middle class families is a fallacy. White middle class families are “desirable” because they tend to be interested in education and have the financial capital to solve or paper over problems. But non-white families and working class families aren’t “undesirable” from a school perspective if they have the financial or social capital to allow them to jump through hoops too. Going to Church is just a hoop.

What adding a faith (or any hoop) to admissions does is weed out the ones who find it harder or are less inclined to jump.

It’s not just white middle class parents who are able to attend church, but the people who do attend church are more likely to be the sorts of families who are interested in education and have the wherewithal to provide support for their kids.

The “undesirable” aren’t non-white families. Aren’t non-middle-class families. They are just families who don’t jump for their kids’ education.

NCHammer2022 · 15/08/2022 15:58

What would Jesus do? Let all the children in. I don't think he'd have admissions criteria, do you? And if he did, it would be TO let the vulnerable children in. I'm not Christian though, what would I know?

In the absence of magic, stretching schools and teachers which can expand and contract to fit the exact number of children who want to go to any given school in any given year, how would you allocate places if not on admissions criteria? Or would you prefer a different criteria? Distance? Because that generally favours well-off parents more as they have the funds to buy in the “right” catchment for a good school. But sure, let them all in 🙄

MarshaMelrose · 15/08/2022 15:59

Actually my friends who are working class do work more on the weekend or evenings. McDonald's, the shopping centre, the DIY shop, all places they work, all open on a Sunday.

If you're a practising Christian, there are plenty of opportunities to go to church. On Sundays most churches hold early morning communion and services in the late afternoon that people can attend. And there are groups that run during the week.
Other religions manage to go to their places of worship and in many cases that is actually on a working day.

NCHammer2022 · 15/08/2022 15:59

Starseeking · 15/08/2022 13:16

@NeverDropYourMooncup Yes, I'm talking about primary, as that's the only stage I know about so far. My apologies regarding mentioning teachers DC as a criteria, that was in one of the private schools I looked at; it definitely isn't in our criteria.

@NCHammer2022 @MarshaMelrose Regarding people organising themselves; I probably described that incorrectly. I meant that if people are truly of that particular religion, they would know the entry requirements and have already done what was needed as a matter of course. Both my DC were baptised within 3 months of birth. Anyone trying to game the system would be caught out when it came to school applications, because they wouldn't have met this requirement. So the entrants to religious schools self-select to some extent, although that's not due to random decisions made by governors, there's a process. I hope that clarifies.

Thanks, I misunderstood what you meant in the initial post, now I get what you mean.

MsPincher · 15/08/2022 16:05

NCHammer2022 · 15/08/2022 09:05

My DD is going to a faith school which is far more diverse than the local population because the church attendees in the parish are a much more diverse population - far more African, eastern european and Spanish and Italian families. We’re not people playing a system, we’re people practicing our faith.

Absolutely. Dds go to a faith school and many are far more mixed than non faith. Quite how @OperaStation is suggesting a Muslim school is selecting white middle class children who can “play the system” I have no idea.

religious schools can select on the basis of religious observance only. Other than that they are the same as any other school. Religious people in the uk are actually not at all necessarily white mc types.

carltonscroop · 15/08/2022 16:05

NCHammer2022 · 15/08/2022 15:58

What would Jesus do? Let all the children in. I don't think he'd have admissions criteria, do you? And if he did, it would be TO let the vulnerable children in. I'm not Christian though, what would I know?

In the absence of magic, stretching schools and teachers which can expand and contract to fit the exact number of children who want to go to any given school in any given year, how would you allocate places if not on admissions criteria? Or would you prefer a different criteria? Distance? Because that generally favours well-off parents more as they have the funds to buy in the “right” catchment for a good school. But sure, let them all in 🙄

Jesus could feed 5000 on 5 loaves and 2 fishes, so I expect he could magically stretch and supply.

Back in a non-messianistic time, church-owned schools cooperate with the state, so that all DC whose parents wish them to have an education free at the point of use can do so. But that doesn’t extend to the detail of exactly which DC goes to which school - that,s government by the Admissions Code and what it permits and disallows

gogohmm · 15/08/2022 16:05

Whilst in theory she is wrong, in practice they seem to have a way of getting the "right" families! My good friends lived 5 mins walk from the local c of e school, the c of e was both their employers (behind the scenes jobs not vicars) and they attended weekly yet they didn't get a place whereas another friend who lives a 20 mins car journey away did despite the fact they rarely go to church - the only difference I could tell was friend one was on uc to make up their income and lived in a deprived neighbourhood (school was on the boundary between 2 very different neighbourhoods! Whereas friend b lived in the most affluent ward and the dad was a solicitor, she is a gp. I wonder???🤔

NCHammer2022 · 15/08/2022 16:06

carltonscroop · 15/08/2022 16:05

Jesus could feed 5000 on 5 loaves and 2 fishes, so I expect he could magically stretch and supply.

Back in a non-messianistic time, church-owned schools cooperate with the state, so that all DC whose parents wish them to have an education free at the point of use can do so. But that doesn’t extend to the detail of exactly which DC goes to which school - that,s government by the Admissions Code and what it permits and disallows

Is there any need to sneer?

Izzy24 · 15/08/2022 16:07

OperaStation · 14/08/2022 18:40

The process is managed by the council. They apply the schools admission criteria.

Your mum’s not completely wrong though. It is essentially a way of selecting mostly white middle class families who have the time and resources to play the system.

Well this would mean all faith schools are white middle class.

Are they?

MsPincher · 15/08/2022 16:16

MrsTerryPratchett · 15/08/2022 15:18

I also disagree with claims that church attendance is only possible for the middle classes.. mass isn’t just a Sunday morning event and it’s free. In fact almost everything our church does (with exception of fetes and toddler group) is free and involves food!

Actually my friends who are working class do work more on the weekend or evenings. McDonald's, the shopping centre, the DIY shop, all places they work, all open on a Sunday. And then there's kids whose parents are too hungover or high. Ones who simply don't care about education. Ones who keep their children in the house as much as possible because they're abusing them.

I say again, any hoops, no matter how ridiculous, will separate out the most vulnerable children. If you said they have to come and count to ten in French on a Wednesday at 4.30pm in April, you'd lose most of the children with and the abused/neglected ones as well. As well as those with exhausted or depressed parents.

What would Jesus do? Let all the children in. I don't think he'd have admissions criteria, do you? And if he did, it would be TO let the vulnerable children in. I'm not Christian though, what would I know?

You have friends who keep their children in the house to abuse them? Have you reported them to social services?

I am not Christian so no idea what Jesus would do. But if a school is set up for children of a particular religion, it’s right children of that religion should get preference. Just because it happens to get better academic results doesn’t mean for example non Muslims should get preference over Muslims for a Muslim school. It’s a Muslim school- makes sense Muslims get preference.

If you happen to be an atheist, why do you want to send your child to a religious school anyway? send them to the non denominational school and be done with it. And stop trying to abolish faith groups schools just because you have a different belief system.

MsPincher · 15/08/2022 16:20

sneer at religious people then being bitter because your kid can’t go to a religious school seems bizarre to me. People need to learn to more more tolerant of difference imo.