To think women are more toxic than people would like to admit?

[MarthaMayver]

I'd like to start by saying by no means are all women toxic, I'm a female myself and have always been a huge supporter of feminism and "sisterhood" if you will. However the more behaviour I witness from women, I'm starting to stray away from seeing them as allies.

I have worked in female dominated sectors my entire life and have constantly had to witness cliques, gossiping, power plays, passive aggressiveness, and downright bullying. I had to leave my last job as it was affecting my mental health so badly.

I always thought this was just part and parcel of working in groups. However I started a new job last year, with an equal spread of male and female colleagues and there has been none of this. I'm now wondering if the problem with all of my previous workplaces was the fact that they were female dominated.

To me, it's very obvious in person how women favour men over their own gender, regardless of how much "female empowerment" and "Women Supporting Women" is preached these days. For example, they will let men get away with mistakes they wouldn't let other women get away with. Male incompetence is often seen as "cute", whereas the same behaviour coming from a woman would be laughed or sneered at.

There are so many stories coming out in recent years of mothers favouring their sons over their daughters, and at worst bullying and abusing their daughters whilst worshiping their sons. I now think back to my own childhood and I can remember many occasions where my mother would put me down for something, while supporting my male siblings for doing the same thing. There were also a lot of sly, underhand insults that I didn't realize at the time, that were never directed towards my brothers.

I'm prepared to be told IBU, but I'm also very interested in knowing how many people agree, or if anyone has any similar experiences.

I can try, but first I need to know what you mean by ‘allow men to form patriarchies’ and how you think they could have stopped it.

This, it’s an old but effective technique.

Of course women can be enthusiastic and awful enforcers of misogyny and the patriarchy, but "women are more toxic than people like to admit" is just a very weird way to make that point and a nonsensical blanket statement.

Why couldn't they have spoke up about it to their husbands, brothers, male friends and family members etc?

How do you know they didn’t?

Totally get what you’re saying. I considered nursing at one point because I wanted to care for people. I’m quite soft and I’ve always been a target for a certain type of woman at work to bully. My good friend is a band 7 nurse and she’s been in the profession for years. She’s a tough cookie, she’ll say it straight to a colleague I’d they’re messing up and then buy them a coffee and it’s over, she’s a good woman and I think the hardest worker I know. She’s been bullied out of 3 positions during her career and it’s just unbelievable to me that it could happen to her! Another friend is high up in social work and she is such a kind and beautiful woman and her life was a misery for nearly 8 years because she was bullied by her manager. These women are toxic and they’re never taken to task, they just get moved to a different department eventually, my friends said that you can tell where the bullies are by looking at how often the staff change. It’s really sad because I think I’d have been good in a caring profession but I know, I honestly know I’d be bullied and I couldn’t take it.

How do you know they did? I think it's more likely that women, to an extent, enjoyed the power it gave them to hide behind men in society. Patriarchy is still rampant in the Middle East, and yet despite modern media, internet, etc, women over there aren't exactly up in arms about it? Why?

I've worked in different environments, mostly male, mostly female, mixed.

While you get bullying and nastiness in any area I think the thing I learned was women seemed to take pleasure in it. I've never dismissed a man for bullying but I have had two women dismissed.

If you want to progress thats fine but don't blame any poor behaviour on your part on 'the patriarchy' or 'the matriarchy' or any other archy just blame it on your determination to succeed and willingness to ditch your normal behaviour.

But your theory is they could have stopped it, I’m asking you how they could have?

I worked in nursing. The senior nurses were another level of evil. They would pick up on any tiny, even insignificant mistake and hound you over it, they would make sure everyone knew about it for the rest of time.They genuinely got a kick out of humiliating and belittling other women. It was awful. I lived in fear everyday of making minuscule mistakes.
If it was a man behaving like this towards a woman it would be regarded as abuse. It's abusive behaviour that frequently gets brushed under the carpet due to the gender of the perpetrator imo.

I would have thought that would have been fruitless.

I can certainly agree with you, on my own experience of nurses.

This.

I have always been happier in a male environment work wise and have always been grateful I have sons and consequently little in the way of friendship dramas

however at school I was basically ina primary school class dominated by queen bees and mean girls so I am probably completely skewed

Patriarchy wants us at each other's throats so that all our time is tied up otherwise we could be ORGANISING ourselves, very scary prospect.

Is the patriarchy a sentient being? Does it hand out instructions on how best to get women to 'be at each others throats'?

I worked for sone of my career as a consultant. IME, very long standing homogenous workplaces (all male or all female, all of mostly one age or all of one ethnicity), tend to be worst to work in. Views and actions will go unchallenged and the diversity ensures that different perspectives are heard. I do not think that all female work environments are worse than all male.

This matches my experience as well. The more diverse a workplace on all factors- sex, age, race, disabled, sexual orientation, religion, nationality- tend to be the least toxic.

If you think men can't be bitchy and backstabbing, you haven't been paying attention, although some male groups will modify their behaviour when women are there. (If you feel you have to apologise for what you say or do when I'm there as the only woman, you shouldn't be saying or doing it regardless. But I won't faint in shock if you swear in front of mejust becuse i don'thave a penis. I'll probably complain if you swear at me.)

Different workplaces and even different departments can have very different cultures. Both men and women can display underhand behaviour, but both men and women can go above and beyond in being supportive. I've had good and bad behaviours from men and women over my career, mostly in male-dominated places, but also in female-dominated ones, though less recently. It's a people thing, not a man/woman thing.

Re: beauty industry and the male gaze - looking at makeup trends I have often wondered whether the target audience are actually men or rather other women.

Excessive makeup, elaborate multi-step skincare routines, hair extensions and such - I personally haven’t encountered many (if any) men who‘d expect that. There was a thread on here a little while ago where a woman’s husband was upset because she‘d gotten a lip filler. Of course that’s just one case, but as said, that’s the attitude I‘ve encountered in many men.

Of course men pay attention to women‘s looks - but the same thing also happens the other way round, no?

As a teenager and in my early twenties I struggled with weight issues and consequently disordered eating. The catty comments I got (and also heard in relation to other women who weren’t skinny) came from women. In my case it took „the male gaze“ to realise that there was nothing wrong with the way I looked.

I’m sorry but this sounds almost religious in tone. Might as well say
“Satan wants us at each other’s throats so that all our time is tied up, otherwise we could be….”

Patriarchy is just short hand for a society where men have more power and control than women. It’s not an omnipresent, all powerful force that ensures women have no power and no control over their behaviour.

That was my thought too when I read the above comment. I know the „divide and conquer“ approach is definitely a thing and has often been implemented throughout history, but in this day and age and in our society, who/what exactly is making (some) women attack each other at the work place or at school?
And I‘m not saying all women do it - I know many wonderful, supportive women. But I also believe the accounts of some of the posters here who have been bullied horribly at work by other women.

I've had male and female bosses.

The males are lovely, friendly and professional.
The women I used to work for, completely different story. Their bitchiness, back stabbing and being my friend one day then enemy the next made my life a misery.
I completely agree with you.
Apart from my oldest female best friends I'd rather hang out with men.

Not as far as I know. Us men don't have a secret WhatsApp group or weekly meetings.

The patriarchy is nothing but an unpleasant evolution of our society that's ended up favouring men because generally we're unpleasant (IMO). For all of us, we're born into a world with pre-existing societal norms and are doing our best to navigate through it. Some of us see the injustices and try to unpick the bad bits. Others just go along with it. Progress is always painfully slow.

I think the way some posters are shifting the focus onto mens bad behaviour are proving my point that society isn't willing to admit womens toxic personality traits.

I'm also not just talking about female dominated workplaces, I'm talking how women treat others as a whole.

For example, in male friendship groups there's always more of a sense of camaraderie, whereas in female friendship groups there always seems to be some element of drama, backstabbing, gossiping etc. Many studies have been done on this.

Mothers turn on their daughters in a way that is basically unheard of in father-son relationship dynamics.

I've also witnessed firsthand how women will publicly put down their husbands/partners and then play the victim. For example, sly insults about his hair line, weight, penis size, etc, all disguised as "banter". If it was a man making jokes about his wifes weight gain, or appearance in general, it wouldn't go down very well.

Women also seem to be more controlling than men in relationships as a whole. You hear countless stories of women telling their partners they can't go out to see their friends, or they have to be back by a certain time, and even down to domineering his relationships with his own family, etc. There have also been studies done on this.

On the subject of controlling, you always seem to hear stories on over-involved, controlling mothers. It never seems to be fathers who exhibit this behaviour.

You say you don’t want to talk about male behaviour but everything you say compares women to men. It’s incredible that you don’t think male relationships can be toxic, I used to work for a male suicide charity and I promise you, you’re wrong about that.

And you still haven’t said how women could have stopped the patriarchy. It’s just constant deflection onto something else. I’m beginning to think you’re not here in good faith.