To be shocked at how common gaslighting is

[crochetmonkey74]

Out and healed from a relationship where gaslighting was a problem in the last few months (fuelled by cowardice on his part)
Am dating again, some successes, some not so much but the thing I have noticed is that gaslighting is so so common. Over really trivial things. (Who said they would call first is one example) I'm not talking about genuine mistakes here, I'm common sense enough to know the difference. In the example above, an online date was reluctant to arrange a real life call, didn't do it, we rearranged and then he didn't reply to the arrangement. Couple of days later he messaged as if nothing was wrong. When I said in polite terms he had been too flaky and clearly didn't want to move on from the constant messaging, he made a story up about how I had got the dates wrong, he only wanted to fit in with me etc etc. When I replied with a screenshot to prove that was all bollocks, he said "fair enough, worth a shot" as if the gaslighting was a thing he'd been caught out in!!!
He is just one in a line of varying degrees of it. I'm a teacher and even at school we are trying to tackle the easy way boys slip into lying or massaging the truth (also more to female teachers) whereas girls tend to tell a story more like the truth.
I'm not bothered or invested about this guy in particular, we were only at the chatting stage, I'm more shocked at how prevalent GL is!

Yanbu about the prevalence of gaslighting, but yabvu to think that it’s more of a problem in primary school boys than primary school girls. In my experience of things like this at school, you’re right that boys will often tell a blatant fib and hope for the best, but I find that much easier to deal with than the girls. Like you say, they tell a version much closer to the truth but it’s not because they’re more honest, it’s because they’re more manipulative! They are more adept at knowing what will be believed and know how to lie in a way that is more likely to be believed to get themselves out of as much trouble.

When I misbehaved, more at secondary school, it was a known method of getting yourself out of trouble to tell a story close to the truth but without details and to admit to some minor wrongdoing instead of all of it. Nowadays we would think of that as gaslighting, back then we just thought we were being clever, but tbf, it worked like a dream!

Is it gaslighting or just lying to your face?

I am constantly gaslit by my female boss. I now only speak with her with someone else present and all emails are CC'd to another colleague. You are right to call out this behaviour every single time

I'm secondary nor primary, and it is a problem in our school. So much so we have it as a focus on the development plan for next year , should have made it clear I was talking about 1 school.
For us , the problem is not kids telling versions close to the truth as they all do , it's the way the boys will lie about what they said, how they said it, how staff spoke to them. The boys have begun to use it as weapon to female staff and back each other up. That's why we are tackling it

It's awful isn't it?
I have decided to call it out each time but it is hard to do so!

Totally agree OP.
Wish l had known the word gaslighting years ago, l would have been able to spot it a mile off.

I think there is gaslighting, in the sense of purposefully trying to make someone question their reality for the purposes of unsettling and controlling them, and there is lying to save one's arse.

I think most people who fit into the 'save one's arse' category do it simply because they lack the skills to admit failure. Sometimes this comes from an upbringing where the consequences of admitting wrong-doing are worse than or equal to the consequences of lying, so they learn that it's best to chance a lie first. Sometime in men particularly I think it might be a result of toxic masculinity. In this case I think it is fear of being seen as being wrong, because being wrong is seen as a weakness. I always think Donald Trump is an excellent example of this!

Yes I think toxic masculinity and fragility also play into it. The idea that you have to 'win' the banter with friends and not being able to accept any weakness at all., perceived or otherwise.

DHs whole family are like it, it's a fucking nightmare.

God how do you cope with that?

I think there's a difference between lying and gaslighting.

Lying is saying something that is not true, maybe to get out of trouble or for other reasons.

Gaslighting is very specifically lying or taking other actions to make someone doubt their own sanity.

I'd never experienced gaslighting quite like my ex. It's really affected my mental health. Even when he attacked me, he continued to gaslight me through mutual friends, saying I fell over and he was helping me. I'm a shell of the person I used to be, but gradually building myself back to how I was.

Yes it's common and I hate it.
The worst is people lying knowing you can't prove they are lying so it's a "he said,she said" situation . It makes it impossible to resolve anything. Would be much easier if people just apologised when they were caught out.

I don't know if it's a result of moving to a more individualistic society but I'm constantly surprised how lying is tolerated (e.g. Boris johnson)

This sounds horrific, poor you.
The worst thing is when you sort of know what happened but you doubt yourself. It feels so confusing
I know what PP are saying about lying and gaslighting being slightly different, but I think one goes so easily to the other.
In the case of my ex, he was lying to cover up a truth that made him look bad to start with, but he let it develop into a story where I was the one to blame. I believed it, took action to address my problem. He let all this happen, knowing he had caused it all with a lie.

Gaslighting is interesting to me, I was brought up by a mother who changed the narrative constantly. An example of this was one time as a child, my mums friend complimented my hair, which I was happy about. Later in the day I listened to my mum talk about what a bitch this women was to tease me about my hair (Because my hair wasn't nice). If I said anything I was told I was too young to understand. This was constant and in every part of life. I learned about gaslighting, and thought "Oh, this was what that was", but I really don't think it was. It WAS trying to make me (and others) believe something that wasn't true, but it was caused (in my opinion) by a constant need to control the situation by putting others down, not by trying to make me feel like I was losing the plot, and that's an important element of gaslighting isn't it? I think what you are describing is insiduous and damaging though. I'm interested in hearing the replies because I am very sensitive to any kind of behaviours like this now and really only like straightforward relationships!

Yeah interesting idea actually, Westminster seems to have been running on a 'throw any old lie out to obfuscate and just move on' for a while so it's bound to trickle down I guess

My DS thinks that a plausible version of events is philosophically the same as the actual truth if noone can prove otherwise and hasn't compunction about lying.
Whereas I was bought up that lying was morally wrong and lying about something was often more serious than the thing itself.
I do feel like something must have changed that makes it more acceptable?

There's a big difference between lying and actual gaslighting though. Gaslighting, like narcissistic is become a throw about term for shitty behaviours, but it goes much deeper than just that.

Reading and Learning. Thankyou

of course, but in the context of this thread, we know what we mean

I know people like this, and they get on a lot better in life than I do. I have been told that sticking to truth/facts, or being honest about things that show you in a poorer light shows low intelligence and a distinct inability to maximise the situation. Added to that the conversations about how subjective truth is in most matters and it's all a bit of a headache for me!

recently, there was an article exploring why we have stopped believing experts and put equal weight on unsubstantiated social media - maybe this has had an effect too- people are no longer interested in the unequivocal truth- they will look for something that suits their outlook instead

Sadly not surprised.

I wonder if it is the intention or the effect which distinguishes between lying and gaslighting. The word originates from a film where the husband undertook quite a deliberate campaign to make his wife think she was losing her mind and to convince other people she was too but I think it's perfectly reasonable to apply it to situations where someone asserts themselves strongly enough, about something you know not to be true, to the point you doubt your own recollection.

For example: partner one asked partner two to pick up a loaf of bread whilst they're out, they discuss what type of bread and partner two agrees but then comes home without the bread.

Partner two says that the shop did not have bread but in fact forgot they needed to get bread, this is an arse saving lie.

Partner two aggressively asserts that partner one never asked them to get bread and partner one wonders whether they imagined the conversation. Partner two may claim they were never asked because they forgot so again it's an arse saving lie but it's still made partner one question their recollection. I think this is both a lie and gaslighting. Partner two may have genuinely forgotten about the bread but our memory can usually be jogged when details of a conversation our recounted, most people would then say, oh shit, sorry it completely slipped my mind rather than double down on insisting the conversation never happened.

Yes I know the technical term and origin of it, I am saying how common it is, how this behaviour is trickling down. Maybe as we are more aware of it, we see it. I have met many men who are completely OK with making me feel like I was wrong, even when they know they are lying ( as was the case in my OP)