To think there's still that teeny weeny bit of a pandemic thing happening?

[IAmOldNow]

Not complaining, just observing:

Figures say: cases rising, hospitalisiations rising, fatalities: flat at best but if anything that'll be thanks to large scale immunisation, largely due to vaccines that may not prevent infection altogether but are, largely, proving to be pretty good at making sure the vast majority of us don't end up on a ventilator and/or: dead!

Currenrt reality says: huge client party tonight. Cue some 3k people crammed into a mostly indoors space, free alcohol, hugging, air kissing, any old thing you'd imagine from people who, literally, know and do not actively hate each other and haven't met in the flesh for two years.

AIBU to think that this is a) human and understandable but also b) bound to see 1/3 of the organisation out cold with COVID within a week?

For the record: I don't know the right answer! I went, too!

It’s not uncaring to not want to test if you have no symptoms.

if I can’t work, I don’t get paid. If I test positive for asymptomatic covid, then I can’t work. There is also the utter upheaval, with two young children, of having to isolate because of covid (which I would feel obliged to do if I was consciously aware that I had it).

So do you know what? I would rather not know. And you can call me all the selfish cows that you like, but in reality (in my experience) this is the real reason people don’t want to test when they aren’t symptomatic. They don’t want to know.

I'm more worried about you being groped ? More than once ?

but PERCEIVE such measures differently, taking them when they feel able to do so out of a sense of social responsibility, empathy & kindness, as opposed to, predominantly, seeing them as utterly unreasonable / downright bizarre. They're neither

But if they don't actually achieve anything, then they are unreasonable/bizarre.

As I said, none of these measures you're talking about come with zero cost. There needs to be better reason for them than them making certain people feel better.

Topgub - yes, that's exactly my point, really. There's no fundamental right or wrong to most of what societies decide to do, but rather an evolved consensus. Everyone's entitled to their views, but what I find interesting is where these come from, especially when views about simple measures in the UK can be quite so extreme?

As the child of a UK parent who has hardly been able to leave her home for 3 years now, living in a country where a difference in perceptions of what is & isn't reasonable would return her freedom, I can't help feeling disappointed by the direction the UK has taken.

Where I am, the personal choice between an itchy swabbed nostril and respecting a friend's wishes to keep everyone safe at a major event is seen as a no-brainer - take the swab. In the UK, I think there's a tendency - not absolute, by any means - to see the no-brainer as going the other way!

Every individual has the right to choose which way they go, but external influences (government, media, culture) shape these individual choices, and, in contributing to a UK forum, in a country in which some people - a friend I recently met with, for example, who I also asked to take a swab before meeting - are quite literally not even aware some CEVs are still suffering in this way, I guess I'd just like people reading to reflect on their decisions.

We're encouraged & keen to "educate ourselves" in many areas nowadays - protecting the physically & mentally vulnerable isn't one of them, but the request is no less reasonable. *NB. I bloody hate that phrase "educate yourself" - arrogant as heck... but I use it to make the point that we accept the need to acknowledging the possibility of societal change being needed for other groups - why not this one? Let's at least consider it - & THEN reject it if we wish, as is our right. I just don't get the feeling it's been considered in the UK full-stop.

(I blame the government in part, but that's another story...!)

But I do take issue with @DappledThings suggestion that it just wasn't a big deal for primary aged kids:

Must have been horrendous for a lot of teenagers and tiny babies missed out on some early socialising and baby groups but for those who were nursery/primary age it wasn't that big a deal in my experience.
In my experience being the crucial words there. And for my nephew, and my NCT friends, and all his class as far as I know. It was for some, maybe most, it definitely wasn't for all.

I can't help feeling disappointed by the direction the UK has taken.

Most highly vaccinated western countries are doing exactly the same though. The U.K. isn't an outlier.

it really is a minor illness now. One of my friends aged 82 has just had it and got over it very quickly ( 4 x vaccinated). I can't see any reason we should not be back to normal now. Earlier this year we went on our first holiday abroad since the pandemic began and it was just so good to be able to relax without any restrictions.

Why?

Very good point indeed from CrossStitch above - conscious of this from my own personal experience. This is partly why I'm not arguing for anything like legal enforcement, or absolutist moral standards, but rather just wishing, rather sadly, for a slight cultural shift in the UK that could, on a national scale, encourage enough individuals who are ABLE to do so to make the choice to test that CEV's people's lives could be transformed.

Won't happen - just my beautiful dream for my lovely parent.

Have to head off now. Thanks, all. It's interesting, & difficult...

It's never going away, and there's no point prolonging our lives by avoiding the virus if those lives are like they were in 2020.

@CEVPeopleExist

You think the swabs keep people safe

I dont.

🤷‍♀️

On this note, why-oh-why is there SUCH strength of feeling in response to such requests or suggestions about how the majority of us could take a few simple steps to protect the vulnerable?

Because people care less about others since they missed out on things themselves.

My DD4 is very vulnerable. Before covid people were brilliant at giving me a heads up if we were due to meet with them and any of them had a cough or cold. They understood if we, as a family, missed out on big events because there was a common bug doing the rounds.

Now we’ve had several instances where people don’t bother. They take that we send her older siblings to school (a necessary risk) as a green flag for them to invite/meet us and hide the fact they’ve got an ill kid. Or worse, they hide it deliberately because their child will be upset if one of mine misses a party or the likes. Apparently they’ve missed enough, and that now trumps my child’s health.

The year alone we’ve had one family deliberately hide chicken pox because their child really wanted DD3 as a sleepover guest (only found out because the mum told another parent, and they insisted she tell us or she would). And just on Saturday someone came round for something, stayed in my house for three hours and then only as they were about to leave announced they were glad covid restrictions were lifted because they’d had symptoms the last three days, but were “sure they were fine” and they’re glad they weren’t stuck in and missing out.

Apparently life has to go on… Which for us will be more hospital stays every time DD gets a cold, and at some point planning her funeral. Basic considerations are now too much to ask by all accounts.

Did you really say we'd gone "back to normal at lightning speed" OP? Lightning speed? It's been 2.5 years!

Monkey pox: "Hold my beer"

Responses interesting - I honestly do see a lot of the patterns I mentioned before eg. hyperbolic ref to lives like in 2020 not being worth living, personal experiences/beliefs overriding reasonable evidence (re. the testing - one PP said LTFs meant 5 people with Covid didn't attend a wedding with guests over 90 yrs old, or something - haven't reread), assumptions that I'm advocating absolutist rules, references to the costs or challenges of shaping a society in which normalising taking the odd test or wearing a mask for a short period if one's personally able to do so are simply too damaging to justify such things as making those 90-year-olds far safer...

These just don't convince me as arguments against my dream of shaping a society in which proportionately more people feel proportionately more willing to do a few simple things (if, and only if, they personally can do so) that the evidence says would, on that national scale, lessen the odds of others dying.

Woah, posting's addictive - know I said I would go! So bye all (properly, this time!)

that the evidence says would, on that national scale, lessen the odds of others dying.

Where is this evidence though? Of the 'simple measures' that will curb the spread of omicron?

Why what?

Agreed, but if I can avoid it, I’d rather not go gasping for breath with a tube down my throat.

Lots of us are not back to anywhere near normal. I’m cev and still avoiding places where I can’t avoid other people. I don’t expect anyone to modify their own behaviour, or test themselves and I’m not judging anyone for doing anything they want to. It’s remarkable how angry it makes people when you decline to do something though.

Within those parameters it’s pretty limited experience of a pretty limited age group.

TheKeatingFive - three questions.

1. Do you think those 90+ year-old wedding guests would have been more, less or just as likely to get omicron had those 5 cases among the guests not been identified by LTFs (still haven't reread posts, so ages, nos etc. may be wrong!)?

2. Do you think the inconvenience of taking a LTF every few weeks/months if the odd friend requests is too great an inconvenience to justify your answer to the above?

According to yours answers, act accordingly. Mine are:

1. Less likely
2. I don't like taking LTFs (very bad tear-reaction!), but it's not that big a deal for me personally, so given the enormity of the potential benefits, however "potential" they may be, I'd be cool with it - no biggie, really!

We can debate til the cows come home (love that phrase), but I think this sums up my views.

I'm now a total hypocrite for still being typing & genuinely late going out. 😁

Thanks again for debating.

(Two questions, & confusingly numbered answers, is what I seem to have posted! Rushing. Hope it makes sense regardless).

Do you think those 90+ year-old wedding guests would have been more, less or just as likely to get omicron had those 5 cases among the guests not been identified by LTFs (still haven't reread posts, so ages, nos etc. may be wrong!)?

Well what are the figures for asymptomatic infections? And/or what's the lag time for infections being picked up by LFTs (anecdotally that's a few days). That information would be needed to answer your question with any accuracy.

Do you think the inconvenience of taking a LTF every few weeks/months if the odd friend requests is too great an inconvenience to justify your answer to the above?

Personally I would take a test of someone close to me asked to. But what about the implications for those who won't be paid if knowingly positive? What would you expect from them?

Tests cost money also, buttons to some, but an extra few quid every few weeks could be problematic to others. Would the individual asking also pay?

This is all about testing though. You were originally talking about more than one measure, no?

Regardless, it was still wrong to say there were no restrictions after summer 2021 because there absolutely were. And the legal requirement to isolate was extremely significant.

It’s remarkable how angry it makes people when you decline to do something though.

It really is. People have become incredibly self centred and seem to think that if they feel something is worth the risk it’s a very personal insult if someone else doesn’t.

Just stop all testing, and then you won't even know whether you have Covid! Honestly, the amount of fuss for something so trivial is beyond all reason.