To be so frustrated with DH

[Frogfrogphilip]

Name changed for this I ended up in a huge argument with DH last night basically over "lad culture", it started with a conversation about stag dos and I made a comment like "I'm sure they are great fun to be part of but they are no fun for anyone else to be around", which he took offence to, and I tried to explain that for example if a woman is on her own in the same place as a stag do it would be likely to make her feel uncomfortable - they may well be a group who aren't going to bother you but how do we know that!? Experience tells us that often groups of guys together, after they have been drinking, might try to talk to women they don't know.

Anyway his answer was that his mates aren't like that, and am I saying he should never meet up with his friends, and asking me what the solution is as how can I expect him to single handedly fix the problem. Maybe my initial comment was a bit unnecessary but I still feel that it's true. This then went round and round in circles with him just taking everything personally and I tried to explain that I KNOW it's not him, but it's the whole culture that is a problem, and because I couldn't tell him exactly what the solution would be for him to personally fix it, he basically said my point was invalid. I ended up so so frustrated I was actually crying about it and then I did shout at him out of sheer frustration. And now all he is saying is that I owe him an apology for the way I spoke to him.

I am at my wit's end and just feel so disappointed that I can't seem to get him to understand, I know if was unreasonable for shouting at him - oh which by the way he's now saying makes me a hypocrite because shouting is an intimidating behaviour. I know I shouldn't have shouted, but that doesn't erase the rest of the conversation. We have a daughter, and since having her I feel more strongly about this, I think I'm just sad that he doesn't seem to feel the same.

Your H is a misogynist. My partner and I discuss all sorts of social issues and he is very forthcoming in saying toxic masculinity and the huge number of men who’ve absorbed it are a massive problem. Seems your H is one of those men.

Hens are just as bad as stag doos a group of woman are just as likely to harass a man its the whole group affect but you were way over the top crying and shouting over crap

This. fgs its a stag do, if you are uncomfortable about something that's nothing to do with you then get up and go. You seem to think it's only a group of men that are obnoxious and rowdy. How small minded are you. The worst I've been around are hen do's.

He’s projecting his uncomfortable feelings as anger. He’s also rubbish at debating. Why should you have to tell him what his contribution should be to solve the problem?

His first contribution ought to be not shouting at someone he loves when trying to explain how a situation makes then feel.

Apologise for shouting if you like but he needs to go and read Everyday Sexism more often to know how it feels. NAMALT yes sure, but a lot of them are. And big groups of shouty drunk men can be intimidating.

The fact that some women can behave as badly as some men doesn’t make women any safer from harassment

Don't apologise, you'll only entrench his views

It does sound like you caused this argument, yes. You were also incorrect and do not speak for all women. I for example have never had any opinions of stag dos either way, no woman I know has ever aired an opinion of them either.

At worst, I might be disappointed if there were a big stag do in the establishment I and I had gone to hoping for a quiet meal, but I would think that if there were a big hen do as well.

I am baffled as to why you started this conversation or why it escalated to such a degree. You both sound ridiculous.

I always found a group of men are usually out for a good laugh not anything threatening towards women at all, I would be more alarmed by a single man

I mean no-one wants to be around stags or hens as they can be loud, drunk and annoying.

I’m not sure this was the hill to die on in a point about toxic masculinity in general.

But don’t apologise as it will only make him more insufferable.

I live in a city that gets lots of stag parties and they are mainly a good laugh and just up for fun. Not threatening at all.

YANBU.

It's incredibly frustrating to talk about a systemic problem in society - lad culture, toxic masculinity, white supremacy, heteronormativity - and the response derails and deflects by taking it personally. I shouldn't have to jump through a series of Not All Men or Not All White People or I Don't Mean You hoops to talk about these issues, especially not with a partner who I'd expect to understand where I'm coming from. If they don't get it they can at least listen without making it about them.

The exact character of an individual stag do is irrelevant. Yes, some are unthreatening and harmless - I have in fact been on stag dos like this, with friends (gender-segregated socialising isn't really a thing for us). But I've also been in places where stag dos have been incredibly obnoxious and overbearing. I haven't felt personally threatened but have been with a gay friend who they targeted in a really weird way.

There's a reason a lot of clubs won't admit groups of men who look like a stag do.

I tend to think that men who deny the problem are likely to be part of the problem.

This 100% I've only been attacked out by lone men. Its never subsequently made me fearful of either going on more nights out or stag dos. If you're intimidated by stag dos you shouldn't be out, simple.

No sorry Sunny I think you are dead wrong on that - why should women or gay men or anyone else stay in because stag dos can be obnoxious?

OP, I have a DD and have had similar frustrating conversations with my husband about lad culture (not stag dos) - as he sees himself as a “good guy” he gets very defensive about the conversation, as if it’s a personal attack. I think the idea of the “good guy” is actually very harmful as it makes it difficult for men to accept that they still might be part of the problem by not actively standing against misogyny or just by some of their more mild behaviour. It all normalises misogyny. I think the “lived experience” comments by PP are very true but men should be able to listen and try to understand instead of turning it into an argument where you have to apologise!

I find both drunken stag dos and drunken hens unpleasant to be around when sober. The person who referenced being on public transport with either gave a good example, generally loud and irritating and thinking they are the only thing that matters - women covered in dicks with little kids around etc etc. I just don’t really like that culture.

But as a woman I would only be intimidated by one of them - and that’s the large group of men. Not just stag dos, but any large group of men who are drunk. I actually find large groups of football fans worse, as they also have the added aggressor of tribalism built in. And I say that as a massive football fan. Travelling in London on public transport is frequently horrible for this, and I have been seen - and been the subject of - all sorts of harassment. Especially to gay men (or men perceived to be gay) actually.

So I don’t think it’s stag dos per se, but large groups of drunk men are often intimidating.

(To add, there are stag parties when they just go and play golf and abseil etc etc and I wouldn’t find that group of men in any way intimidating, so I think it’s the behaviour that comes out when in a pack and pissed that causes the issues.)

I never said women or gay men should stay in 🤔🤣 I said if you find stag dos intimidating your probably not cut out for a night out. That goes for anyone man, woman whatever.

Very much this

If you're so delicate that a group of people on a night out intimidates you seek help or stay away

Some people on here are not understanding what you were trying to say to your DH (ironically just like your DH)! You were trying to talk about lad culture and misogyny using stag parties as an example of this. Your DH took it personally like you were saying ALL MEN. Mine was like this for ages, it took so many heated arguments for him to understand and even now he is a bit prickly over it.

You can apologise for shouting but don't apologise for the point you were making because you are right- whether he likes it or not. It can be difficult for many people to understand and uncomfortable. Even I used to get annoyed about feminism because I didn't want it to be true, what they were saying. But once you have seen it, you can't unsee it.

He should also apologise for being so defensive. Then maybe it will be a step towards increased understanding.

The op started by saying no one liked being around stag do's

If he can't see the problem then he's part if it.

OP, i'm sorry so many posters are spectacularly missing the point. YANBU. There is nothing more frustrating than men who respond to you pointing out that misogyny exists and is a problem for us in society with a "but I'M not one of those men and neither are my friends!!!" It's so predictable. Not only centering themselves in a conversation about the experience of women but also absolving themselves of any responsibility. Not every man will behave inappropriately towards women, but every man will have seen a friend, colleague, relative, or acquaintance behave inappropriately towards a woman and probably stood by and said or done fuck all. The fact that your DH went on to tell you that your opinion is invalid unless you can tell him exactly what is needed to fix this deeply entrenched, societal problem speaks volumes. Men think that unless they're the ones doing the raping, harassing and intimidating they shouldn't have to take any responsibility for acknowledging, let alone addressing, casual sexism or male violence against women. The onus is always on women to find solutions or workarounds, to change our behaviour or remove ourselves from certain situations. Fuck that.

This 100% I've only been attacked out by lone men. Its never subsequently made me fearful of either going on more nights out or stag dos. If you're intimidated by stag dos you shouldn't be out, simple.

So because you personally have only ever been attacked by lone men, women being harassed or intimidated by groups of men isn't a thing that happens? Having been on my own in a train carriage with a group of men on a stag do who decided to pass the time by loudly exchanging jokes about raping me, I'm pleased you've never had to deal with that but I take issue with your assertion that it means I "shouldn't be out". The problem was their behaviour, not me having the audacity to travel home by train after a late shift.

Well my experience of being actually raped was far worse than what you've just described, I'm pleased you've not experienced that but I'm STILL not frightened of men in groups.