Did DD deserve to be told off??

[PillowFeather]

My sister came around earlier. DD (9) was being quite animated dancing around in the living room. I went to make a cup of coffee and just as I walked back into the room I heard my sister say “don’t come clarting around me!”. DD stopped dancing, gave a nervous laugh then retreated upstairs to her room. I shouted up that I’d made her a drink and got no reply so I went up to find her crying. I asked what was wrong and she shouted at me to go away.

I went back downstairs and asked my sister what had happened and she said “she was doing that stupid dance around me and I can’t be arsed with it, she needs to grow up”.

DD is quite immature for her age and it doesn’t help that my niece (sisters DD) is the same age but mature for her age. Niece is spending the holidays hanging out with friends whereas DD doesn’t have any friends 😞

I can’t get it out of my head, I think DD was embarrassed and I don’t think she deserved to be told off?! Or am I being soft?

[Brefugee]

Nobody is teasing her - he asked her why she speaks like a baby WHICH SHE DOES
You sound oversensitive to me.
Perhaps someone should have done some straight talking to you as a child. She annoys the adults round her. The children don't want to play with her. Clearly there is something going on.

Occam's Razor would suggest checking that the girl doesn't have some problems that need to be talked about with her parents. She doesn't sound happy, she does sound attention seeking. And we all know that other children loathe that.

What she needs is to learn how to behave (how to comport herself rather than sit in a corner and be silent) in different situations. It doesn't seem, from OPs posts, that she's learning that. Maybe she is ND, maybe she's just stubborn. Who knows. She does sound rather sad though if she has no friends, and as a parent that would sadden and worry me. So I'd be trying to get to the bottom of it rather than thinking the entire world are mean girls being mean.

[Discovereads]

but you're also extrapolating things that make sense only to you
Not just to me, over a dozen other posters have see the aunt for the miserable grumpy cow she is.

[Alfenstein]

@Discovereads

the aunt was unreasonable for getting annoyed at a child dancing in her personal space?. There’s no evidence the child was dancing in the aunts personal space, and quite a bit to the contrary including the fact the OP said her DD was dancing “in the centre of the room” and the aunt not mentioning the DD was dancing too close or in her space when the OP asked what happened.

Do you not understand the word 'near'

Or the term 'being near to someone'

[Brefugee]

c) the aunt thinks the dance is stupid (oh, wait she did actually say that) and so doesn’t want the DD doing it within her sight and hearing.

FGS. SHE DIDN'T SAY THAT DID SHE?

Yes I’m fighting in the DDs corner because someone needs to. In every post you and others seem to only be willing to entertain the possibility that the DD is shit and the aunt is some long suffering saint.

The mum is fighting her corner. But the fact that the majority here think the behaviour isn't quite right for a 9 year old on all occasions (sometimes it is fine to dance, make up games and speak like a baby) and you seem to be the only one who can't spot it thinks that pretty much all you say is projection so there is no point debating it with you, is there?

Nobody is calling the DD a shit. Not even me and I'd have less patience than the aunt (to the extent that i probably wouldn't visit if she annoyed me that much). What people are saying is that some of her behaviours are inappropriate at some of the times and her family are trying to correct that because OP apparently isn't. In some ways they are doing her more of a favour than an indulgent parent. Which is also kind of sad for the child too.

Maybe dancing lessons would be good. I can tell you how it would go with my DCs ballet teacher.
They go in. The DD touches the piano. Teacher says - Everyone to their places. DD fidgets with the piano. Teacher calls DDs name and says "including you". What do you think happens next?

[Discovereads]

@Brefugee

Nobody is teasing her - he asked her why she speaks like a baby WHICH SHE DOES
You sound oversensitive to me.
Perhaps someone should have done some straight talking to you as a child. She annoys the adults round her. The children don't want to play with her. Clearly there is something going on.

Occam's Razor would suggest checking that the girl doesn't have some problems that need to be talked about with her parents. She doesn't sound happy, she does sound attention seeking. And we all know that other children loathe that.

What she needs is to learn how to behave (how to comport herself rather than sit in a corner and be silent) in different situations. It doesn't seem, from OPs posts, that she's learning that. Maybe she is ND, maybe she's just stubborn. Who knows. She does sound rather sad though if she has no friends, and as a parent that would sadden and worry me. So I'd be trying to get to the bottom of it rather than thinking the entire world are mean girls being mean.

God you are so black and white. It’s not an either or situation.

I have said repeatedly yes the DD needs to be assessed for SEN as she is having problems and you need to know if and which type of ND applies because that determines how you handle it. You can’t teach an ND child how to navigate social situations the same way you teach a NT child.

But what is also going on is unnecessary meanness and bullying from the OPs family and potentially at school as the DD has no friends. This has to be dealt with as well. There was nothing in the snapping and teasing that was helpful to the DD. It was purely to criticise and knock her already low self confidence down further. To mock her imagination. To mock her dancing. To tell her merely touching a piano out of curiosity is wrong. To tease her about her voice. None of this helps the DD at all.

Nowhere have I said it’s all mean girls being mean. But people are being mean to the DD and they need to stop. An assessment and diagnosis isn’t going to fix an intolerant family that thinks the way to handle the DDs struggles is through public humiliation and shaming her.

[Discovereads]

@Brefugee
Nobody is teasing her - he asked her why she speaks like a baby WHICH SHE DOES

I have to address this separately. It’s like you’re saying you can’t be teasing someone if what you’re teasing them about is true. But that’s not the case.

Asking a girl why you so fat…WHICH SHE IS…
Asking a girl why you so clumsy/dropping things…..WHICH SHE DID
Asking a girl why you so blind…WHICH SHE IS
Asking a girl why you can’t shut up….WHICH SHE DOES
Asking a girl why she acts like a boy…WHICH SHE DOES

The whole point of teasing is the bully picks something true about their victim and then humiliates them for it.

[Brefugee]

I have not made out it's black or white at all. I have come up with a couple of scenarios

I was wondering why i was so invested, then i remember some of the kids that get sent to me for tutoring. And it is clear why they have bad grades at school. Some of them have no sense of occasion, no idea about how to behave (and i cover from 5 to 19). They back chat. They use funny voices (i don't find them amusing) they fidget. They distract. They talk loudly. They are SHOCKED and STUNNED when I tell them to stop doing something. And like OPs DD often deny in the face of all evidence, that they did it. So the rule is i tell them once. The next time they come to sit right at the front on their own. The third time i send them home with a note to the parents that i don't accept that behaviour and it is to stop.
If they do it again at the next lesson - off they go, and i don't tutor them any more. Parents are shocked and stunned.
But often it is just that nobody at home has ever told them how to behave.

[Discovereads]

@Brefugee
FGS. SHE DIDN'T SAY THAT DID SHE?

YES she fucking did. The Aunt said she was doing “that stupid dance again” she fucking said it.

[MaxOverTheMoon]

This thread is also bonkers. Is there a full moon coming up as MN seems unhinged lately.

OP, whether your dd is ND or not she still needs some help with socialisation. Covid has probably hindered this in her development as she does seem over sensitive. But so do you, I wouldn't have batted an eyelid at any one of my friends or family saying similar things to my dd at that age.

Help her develop these skills. Accept some people will get irritated by her talking like a baby etc and your dad wouldn't be as harsh as a teacher would if she acted like that in a classroom. That would be more humiliating. It is our job to socialise and support our dc as a parent. All this bollocks about acceptance just doesn't happen in reality.

[Discovereads]

@Brefugee
But the fact that the majority here think the behaviour isn't quite right for a 9 year old on all occasions (sometimes it is fine to dance, make up games and speak like a baby) and you seem to be the only one who can't spot it thinks that pretty much all you say is projection so there is no point debating it with you, is there?

WTAF are you taking about! I have said the DDs behaviour isn’t quite right, that’s why I have said for the umpteenth time that the DD needs to be assessed for SEN.

The problem is you think that the Aunt and grandfathers behaviours were perfectly fine, and I disagree and think they are mistreating the DD. And as for “majority” they agree with me not, you. 67% of voters say that the DD did not deserve to be told off by her aunt ergo the aunts behaviour was not perfectly fine.

[Greenleaf22]

@Discovereads

Assume away, you’re quite good at making things up to defend the aunts nastiness. Forget the fact that the aunt had just arrived at the OPs home.
The aunts “patience is thin”. What patience would that be? There isn’t any patience being modelled here as in the thirty seconds after the OP has said hello and stepped into the kitchen to put the kettle on, the aunt is already snapping “don’t be clarting around me!” at a child who was there first and is using her living room to dance about in. And then when the child’s cleared off crying in the face of the aunts aggressive nastiness, the aunt doubles down and tells OP “She was doing that stupid dance again and I couldn’t be arsed. She needs to grow up”.

There was no attempt to be patient or nice. None at all. And it’s not like the aunt had reached the end of a long exhausting day of constant annoyance and snapped and then regretted it.

Thats not what happened.

The aunt wasn’t aggressive or nasty.
I do think you have some deep childhood trauma and need help for it as your directing you anger out on the wrong people and trying to make something about of nothing.

[Greenleaf22]

You’re* 😉

[Kanaloa]

@Eunorition

Your family all sound like the sorts who think she shows be into boys and nail varnish and will nah her until she does. My paternal family were like this. Obsessed with tiny girls being grown women . Always asking us if we 'had boyfriends'. Pervy weirdos.

My 9 year old does silly voices with her family, plays games and enjoys being a little girl. She's got the rest of her life to be criticised and berated and deemed not to be the right sort of woman. I'd be keeping her away from any family members who have started early. "Being mature" probably means their parents tossed out all their toys a year ago, bought her a phone and told her to like hair and makeup and adult TV shows?

Yes, I imagine that was also the issue at martial arts class? The teacher told her off because they secretly wanted her to be applying makeup in the corner and chatting about the latest Gossip Girl reboot. Not because she was messing around and not able to listen and take correction like every other child. That’ll be the problem with all the other children in her life too - they’re all busy discussing boys and lip gloss in year 4 and that’s why she struggles making friends.

[SlowingDownAndDown]

Purely on the evidence of direct speech, the aunt is a dick and the niece seems to have adopted her style. I can’t imagine talking to anyone about their child the way the aunt did.
Clarting about to me is more like making a meal of something eg. Clarting about making eclairs with a piping bag- not just a faff but messy with it.

[AmyDudley]

There is a lot of pretty unpleasant calling this child annoying, attention seeking, immature on this thread based on a few isolated incidents. The child danced around, she sometimes talks in a baby voice, she panics when she perceives she's being told off. These may or may not be irritating behaviours depending on the context, but they do not make OP's daughter an annoying child.

If I were you OP I would build her confidence by largely ignoring (or maybe gently guiding away from) some of the socially awkward behaviours, and really big up the things she is good at, we already know she likes make believe, so 'hey DD you have such a great imagination, I bet you are really good at writing stories'. I'm sure there are many time she is kind, thoughtful, funny, clever, hard working etc etc. Why shouldn't she get a bit of credit for all the things she does well, instead of being berated for the stuff she is less good at. Letting her know she is good at lots of things will build her confidence and she will find it easier to cope when people are critical. A barrage of criticism makes people more sensitive to criticism, not more resilient and they lose their sense of self worth and become very self critical.

Human interaction is very nuanced and there are many many unwritten rules of behaviour such that when anyone is slightly different it really sticks out. But many nine year olds haven't grasped all the rules, some people never grasp them all for any number of reasons. It doesn't mean they are annoying people and it doesn't mean it is OK to be unkind.

People who get very vitriolic about young children being <heaven forbid> childish, should maybe ask themselves why they are so easily wound up discussing a child they don't know on an internet forum.
Maybe a bit of dancing would help them chill out.😉

[Greenleaf22]

@AmyDudley

There is a lot of pretty unpleasant calling this child annoying, attention seeking, immature on this thread based on a few isolated incidents. The child danced around, she sometimes talks in a baby voice, she panics when she perceives she's being told off. These may or may not be irritating behaviours depending on the context, but they do not make OP's daughter an annoying child.

If I were you OP I would build her confidence by largely ignoring (or maybe gently guiding away from) some of the socially awkward behaviours, and really big up the things she is good at, we already know she likes make believe, so 'hey DD you have such a great imagination, I bet you are really good at writing stories'. I'm sure there are many time she is kind, thoughtful, funny, clever, hard working etc etc. Why shouldn't she get a bit of credit for all the things she does well, instead of being berated for the stuff she is less good at. Letting her know she is good at lots of things will build her confidence and she will find it easier to cope when people are critical. A barrage of criticism makes people more sensitive to criticism, not more resilient and they lose their sense of self worth and become very self critical.

Human interaction is very nuanced and there are many many unwritten rules of behaviour such that when anyone is slightly different it really sticks out. But many nine year olds haven't grasped all the rules, some people never grasp them all for any number of reasons. It doesn't mean they are annoying people and it doesn't mean it is OK to be unkind.

People who get very vitriolic about young children being <heaven forbid> childish, should maybe ask themselves why they are so easily wound up discussing a child they don't know on an internet forum.
Maybe a bit of dancing would help them chill out.😉

People who get very vitriolic about young children being
childish, should maybe ask themselves why they are so easily wound up discussing a child they don't know on an internet forum.

Same can be said about a woman they have never met and no nothing about other than one comment she made one time.

[Alfenstein]

@AmyDudley

There is a lot of pretty unpleasant calling this child annoying, attention seeking, immature on this thread based on a few isolated incidents. The child danced around, she sometimes talks in a baby voice, she panics when she perceives she's being told off. These may or may not be irritating behaviours depending on the context, but they do not make OP's daughter an annoying child.

If I were you OP I would build her confidence by largely ignoring (or maybe gently guiding away from) some of the socially awkward behaviours, and really big up the things she is good at, we already know she likes make believe, so 'hey DD you have such a great imagination, I bet you are really good at writing stories'. I'm sure there are many time she is kind, thoughtful, funny, clever, hard working etc etc. Why shouldn't she get a bit of credit for all the things she does well, instead of being berated for the stuff she is less good at. Letting her know she is good at lots of things will build her confidence and she will find it easier to cope when people are critical. A barrage of criticism makes people more sensitive to criticism, not more resilient and they lose their sense of self worth and become very self critical.

Human interaction is very nuanced and there are many many unwritten rules of behaviour such that when anyone is slightly different it really sticks out. But many nine year olds haven't grasped all the rules, some people never grasp them all for any number of reasons. It doesn't mean they are annoying people and it doesn't mean it is OK to be unkind.

People who get very vitriolic about young children being <heaven forbid> childish, should maybe ask themselves why they are so easily wound up discussing a child they don't know on an internet forum.
Maybe a bit of dancing would help them chill out.😉

But it's not a few isolated incidents

The comments from the family show it's a pattern of behaviour

The fact this child has no friends shows it's a longer term issue as well

[Needwine999]

Not sure what clarting is but she is 9, nothing wrong with dancing around?

[Whatsonmymindgrapes]

Have you posted before about your DD and aunt and niece? Maybe it’s a personality clash and you shouldn’t spend so much time together it’s obviously not good for your daughters self esteem to go told she’s childish all the time, I mean she is a child. She’s 9.

[Alfenstein]

@Needwine999

Not sure what clarting is but she is 9, nothing wrong with dancing around?

No one has said there is something wrong with dancing around in general

Dancing around in a small room near someone else however is a different scenario

Hopefully you understand that basic fact

[Dalaidramailama]

Yes sounds like zero boundaries and mum has gone insane because her sister told her kid off.

Your sister by the way not a random on the street. Thankfully I have the sort of relationship with my adult sister whereby I can let her know if one of her kids is annoying the shit out of me and vice versa.

[Bnxybee]

Two things can be true:

1. OP’s DD has some behavioural issues which need to be addressed.
2. The family aren’t dealing with it in the right manner. The grandad should have taken her aside instead of publicly humiliating her in front of family members.

I have an ADHD diagnosis. Although I did have friends, some of my most painful memories involve rejection from my peers and even family members.

There’s nothing wrong with correcting a child’s behaviour. Just be mindful about their feelings.

[Discovereads]

@Greenleaf22

The aunt wasn’t aggressive or nasty.
I do think you have some deep childhood trauma and need help for it as your directing you anger out on the wrong people and trying to make something about of nothing.

The aunt wasn’t aggressive or nasty?

So ‘don’t be clarting around me!’ And the sneering of ‘she was doing that stupid dance again but I couldn’t be arsed, she needs to grow up’ is actually oh so nice and caring?

Are you by chance a convict at HMP Bronzefield? With Frankie Smith for a cell mate? That would explain how skewed your perception is.

Im not angry at all. I just don’t agree with blaming a 9yo girl for her own mistreatment. No amount of annoying justifies the way her grandfather, aunt and cousin have spoken to her, or about her. The OP is being perfectly reasonable to be concerned for her DD. And as she is the DDs mother, I think she would know better than you whether such things are hurting her own child.

[Arbesque]

@Discovereads

I went to make a cup of coffee and just as I walked back into the room I heard my sister say “don’t come clarting around me!”. DD stopped dancing, gave a nervous laugh then retreated upstairs to her room. I shouted up that I’d made her a drink and got no reply so I went up to find her crying. I asked what was wrong and she shouted at me to go away. 
I went back downstairs and asked my sister what had happened and she said “she was doing that stupid dance around me and I can’t be arsed with it, she needs to grow up”.


The conversation with my dad went like this:

Dad “why do you talk in that baby voice?”

DD “I don’t”

Dad: “you do, you’re doing it now, why?”

DD: “I’m not?”

Dad: “you are! You always do it! Why do you talk like a baby?”

bare in mind this was in front of all her cousins, most of whom were laughing

I’ve tried to coach her in normal conversation but she reverts back to talking about babyish stuff. A couple of weeks ago we took her and niece out for the day, DD said something about getting a rowing boat and playing castaway on the island in the lake and niece snapped at her to stop being childish. DD ended up playing on the climbing frames by herself and niece sat with us. It’s upsetting.

No, still not seeing an abusive family from any of that.