Colleague off long term sick but running businesses on the side

[bubblesandfizzwithcherryontop]

A colleague of mine, lets call her Jane has been off sick for the last 5 months.
She stormed out of the office one day after a row with our manager after being challenged about her bad attitude towards others and refusal to do certain aspects of her job role.

Despite being off sick and on full pay (NHS), Jane has been running a couple of home-based businesses on the side. One is arts and crafts based (making keepsake type gifts to sell), and the other is make up artistry (she does wedding and party make up). She advertises both of these side businesses all over Facebook and other SM. Very open about both of them.

People from work are on her SM, but this doesn't seem to deter her from advertising the businesses whilst off sick, allegedly too stressed to even get out of bed.

Its causing a lot of resentment at work, especially as she's on full pay.

I know someone who was a nurse, signed off sick for ‘stress’ from the nhs for 10 months but working on the side.

someone reported her and she was sacked and lost her nhs pension.

report her and let HR decide if she is breaking the sickness policy or not.

my point is that the NHS won't do anything about someone who is clearly taking the piss when signed off sick

Neither will many public services, come to that, probably at least partly because it's not their money that's being wasted

Many don't seem to have noticed that this employee didn't go off sick in the first place - she stormed out after being challenged about her performance and then got signed off with something that's not easily provable either way

We can't know much about one individual, but the situation's absolutely classic

Yeah could they let me know where they work? I'd like to get full pay and go off sick too, they can cover my work for me. They clearly don't mind and won't be nosy.

If you want full sick pay then get a public sector job. Go to uni and train to be a nurse/social worker/teacher/commissioning officer etc. There has to be some perks to those type of jobs. Or campaign that it should be standard everywhere.

I'm public sector and once used my full 6 months off. My manager couldn't have been any more supportive. I couldn't physically do my job, if I hadn't of got better I would have been managed out. Luckily I did and now have things like an orthopaedic chair in the office and service users close to me to avoid driving long distances in pain. And I went out LOADS when I was off - encouraged by my manager. Why would she was me to sit around and get depressed stuck at home before coming back to work? Makes zero sense. Find a company or organisation that looks after their employees instead of moaning that you don't get looked after the same.

Why are you finding it so difficult to understand?
Are you really this unable to read the room? Do you not realise that rubbing the OP's nose in it is a pretty insensitive thing to do?

TBH you are the one who sounds bitter.

You do sometimes have to go out to get better. I spent 3 months off work because I broke a lot of my body, literally. I couldn't even walk for a long time. I had to go out to get better, I had to move at some point. Sitting around all day makes it worse and means you take a lot longer to get better. Going out when depressed or stressed will help your mental health.

But there's a big difference between going for a walk or for a coffee, and having two businesses set up potentially earning you money. You don't need to do the latter to get better, under any circumstances.

I wonder how many of these super-tolerant people would be quite so relaxed about this if the person in question were their employee?

If they were my employee there would be reviews, within all legal possiblities, about their capabilities. Then following employment law i would get rid. It's possible, but you need good legal advice and that is expensive. Which is one reason so many companies don't actually do it.

The thing is that it is between the employee and employer. And of course colleagues will gossip. That is the nature of humans.
However. What should be concerning the OP and their team is how this is affecting their workload and their work-life balance and that is how they need to approach their employer about it. Not "X is off sick and has 2 side hustles and that's not fair" but "X is not available to work and we are all on the verge of burn out and can't manage their work as well as our own so what is the short-, medium-, and long-term plan to handle this?". And then any employer worth their salt (so maybe not NHS) would have a headcount/workload review and rearrange things.

But if OP goes in with this in a "i want to get X in trouble so I'm snitching" that will just backfire, i feel, in some way. Which is why it is better to concentrate on the things that directly affect you, and get on with your life.

Oh I completely agree the person the OP is talking about takes the piss. I was making my points to the people complaining bitterly about full sick pay for others.

Or someone might be off sick because of stress/mental health issues which is aggravated by one particular job, but able to continue with another employment that does not cause them mental health issues.

Well then they need to leave the job they can’t do and take up the one they can. Not get full pay for months on end at the expense the company and their colleagues.

Ultimately I don't know the finer detail of why she can't attend work and it may be that her stress is entirely environmental so doesn't restrict her outside of work.

The only people who'd know that would be her and the manager. If you feel it's something management should be aware of then tell them. If she's doing nothing wrong it's no big deal and if she's taking the piss then at least it can be tackled.

I’m with you too OP. Worked for the NHS for 15 years and absolutely had enough. If you are picking up someone else’s work, and that’s impacting on your personal life that is 100% your business. Honestly - in my job I could do one quarter the amount of work and get paid the same - no one ever gets the sack.

This year, I’ve had other peoples pisstaking negatively impact the one week of leave I have with my son this summer - I had to pick up work on one of the day’s off. But somehow that’s all OK. No wonder people are leaving in their droves.

And we wonder why the NHS is on its knees

Going out (walks, shopping, for example) is very different from running a business.

I'm with you OP. This would really piss me off. Sadly MN seem to think that being off sick for years while living a perfectly normal life is acceptable.

She needs to make a decision - if he NHS job is too stressful then she needs to quit, so her sick pay can go towards someone else's salary.

I work for the nhs and there's been a couple of cases of this and in both cases these people were encouraged to hand their notices in before they went thru formal processes.

One woman was cleaning people's houses and ironing while off with a bad back......

Another was doing online tutoring for English but online earning money while being paid during nhs office hours while she was off - not sure what she was signed off with

My opinion would be I go to work and work hard and earn my money why should other people be paid for doing nothing and having a side hussle - if people are genuinely poorly this makes a mockery of the whole system and is very unfair to the genuine people who are sick

Get her reported op

this is from my health boards sickness policy under long term sickness management

"Undertaking other work whilst absent. Once reported as absent due to sickness,
an employee should not undertake other work including, self-employment, without the prior written consent of the manager. Failure to do so may be considered as breach of contract and subject to disciplinary action, which may result in the involvement of the counter fraud department and / or dismissal. Such action will only be taken following advice from Workforce."

That being said I would mind my own business and not dob someone in.

In Jane's particular situation- I'd say she's taking the piss. Probably off sick due to stress she caused.
In other situations, like off sick due to injured arm and job is physically demanding, I think it's fine when you start something on the side that doesn't disrupt the recovery. This is how my husband started his business. Off sick for 1.5 month due to injury, started his business but he used his brain for his own business, not his injured limb. He tried to come back, but he couldn't, 6 weeks off sick and all came back, so he jumped full time to his own business.

yanbu for being irked.
i suggest to raise a complaint with HR anonymously and ask them to look at her contract. She sounds a like a nuisance anyway so if she hasn’t declared her side hussle before, they could use this as a way to get her out/ bring her back.

Say that you’re concerned about the increase in workload due to her prolonged absence (I assume with no incremental supplement to your/your teams’ salary) and you’re concerned that a) there’s no incentive for her to return (on full pay); b) there’s no way for them to replace her on a long term basis anyway and legally; c) you’re concerned about team morale (people thinking of leaving).

i had a similar situation at an old place. Had a colleague at my level who was ‘stressed’ after being pulled up by a manager for her crap work. She said she would use this time and the 6m full pay they’d get to launch her MUA business. I was expected to pick up her work, for free quietly and without complaints. I raised it with HR. They stalked her socials for a few weeks, notified her that it had come to her attention she had a side hussle for which she hadn’t got permission in writing from the company to be financially involved in and that she needed to stop her business or leave. The rest of us were given a golden grand and fancy theatre tickets for the extra work we had to do to cover her.

I'm in the NHS and it is annoying when people do this. I'm sure she will deny working elsewhere (in whatever capacity), for income, at her back to work interview. I think it really is taking the pi** of the NHS and her colleagues tbh especially if she is flaunting it all over social media. If you are signed off as sick the that means signed off from all jobs. Fine, she can carry on with her 'hobbies' but to accept payment whilst claiming NHS sick pay is fraud.

I know of two people who were sacked from the NHS whilst on long term sick as they were earning money (even in a small way) elsewhere.

It is an abuse of the NHS.

I'd report to management.

I work in the NHS and have some management responsibilities.
When you conduct the 'return to work ' interview its asked on the form (in my trust anyway, suspect it's standard) if the person has undertaken any work paid or unpaid during their time off.

No ones ever said yes so not sure what would happen, but I'm guessing it would affect sick pay, and be fraudulent if the person said no , if they had been.

DNiece works in NHS admin. In her department out of a team of 9 they only had 5 who actually did the work, the others all simply progressed from one period of sick leave to the next. Ultimately someone actually had the sense to decide on restructuring the department to make four redundancies, carried out a fair interview process, and unsurprisingly retained the people who were doing the work anyway. But they still had to offer redeployment to the others, so presumably at least some departments had to consider taking them on.

Given that it is actually permissible in law to dismiss someone who is unable to do the job due to long term health problems, the NHS is extraordinarily wet about this. Yes, they may have some big fights but if they send the message that this sort of practice is not going to be so easy in future I suspect they could save a fortune.

I know how annoying this can be, however about 10 years ago I temped in the NHS sometimes typing up HR letters following disciplinary procedures. These were mainly staff going down the sick discipline route and whilst initial sick benefits seem quite generous I found they were very strict on the discipline stages. One lady at 12 months sick accepted her stage 2 warning and understood that she had to return immediately plus if she had another period off sick (one day included I think) in the following 3 months then it would go to review dismissal. The lady was still undergoing cancer treatment- and had run out of sick pay. I always felt there should be a different process for sick than performance discipline as the term dismissed when serious illness just seems wrong.
im now in public sector and whilst yes I can get full sick pay it is for 5 months full/5 half and is then not available at that level until I build back up service - so if I had 5 months off in one year then next year it’s only a couple of weeks and another 5 years until I could get 5 months full pay again.
The discipline process kicks in after 2 periods of sick or 6 days in one rolling year so you do often drag yourself in when quite poorly if possible, just in case you’re more ill later in that year and need the day or so off. Trouble is once you’ve breached this then you really should take your time to make sure you’re fully better or you can proceed quite quickly down the discipline route from 1 to 2 to end by needing just an odd day off in review period. In this review period there are also restrictions on applications or overtime.
somehow at the other end of the scale there are folk who make a business out of being sick and evading dismissal but you can’t base a policy on that - it’s already to me quite restrictive in a way for average sick purposes. The main unfair but that is your issue OP is that you’re picking up extra work and it’s lowering team morale. I’d pass the info on perhaps to your manager but also ask them if there’s anything to recognise the work being covered - reward based or just acknowledgement even perhaps, and ask how it is expected to be covered going forwards.

I’m going to be honest OP I agree your colleague seems to be taking the mick a bit (only going off of your post - I don’t agree with being off from work but being able to do other work on the side? Unless for example your job is physically demanding and she is unable to so is doing desk job at home sort of thing)

But… biggest lesson I’ve learned is that you should just focus on yourself and your own earnings at work. I’ve been there and done that being annoyed that others got paid more, got paid for sick days off when I just knew they were off skiving and what not. It’s just a drain of energy. It doesn’t affect you or your pay if your colleague is in or out. Unless of course you’re doing half her job whilst she’s at home making arts and crafts

It depends on what grounds she's been signed off sick. If she's been signed off for mental health reasons linked to her job, then that wouldn't prevent her from doing things that she enjoys. Something creative and enjoyable like crafts or makeup is exactly the sort of thing someone would be encouraged to do if they were struggling with stress or depression. She's basically hobbies from which she can also make a small amount of extra from, rather than 'running businesses'. If she has other people from work on her social media, she is presumably aware that they can see her posts and she doesn't feel that what she is doing contradicts her sick notes, which are between her and her manager.

If you are not her manager, this is not your problem and you shouldn't actually know whether she is 'too stressed to get out of bed' anyway because the nature of her sick leave shouldn't be shared with colleagues. You obviously really dislike her but you and your colleagues should delete her off social media rather than moaning about her and trying to get her sacked.

It depends on what she is doing on the side and what she’s off sick for. If she’s off sick 9-5 and working elsewhere 9-5 obviously report her to management. But if she’s working outside her work hours (weekends etc) then she is allowed to do that. She should really declare any other employment it’s standard government policy to do so to ensure no conflicts of interest.