Is this hoarding? Doesn't seem as severe?

[EllaPercy]

Evening all. Name change as could be outing to the person talked about in the thread.

When does being sentimental turn into being a hoarder?

I've offended my cousin today but I do think she's more than sentimental.

Moving house and not had many viewings so estate agent said it's because the house is too cluttered and to clear out and take more photos.

So I went to help as I'm quite the opposite - she says too I'm ruthless as I don't keep much.

She's the opposite. Still has her childhood toys. All her school books. All her DC baby clothes and toys.

Which to me is hoarding.

But that's the row - as it's not like on TV where there is filth 5ft deep. Which I did stress.

There isn't a clear surface in the place. But it isn't a dirty home.

But I do think it's not healthy to not part with anything.

Is there a name for it other than hoarding? It is generally things with sentimental value that she has. But there's just SO MUCH of if.

In a way it doesn't matter, because if it is hoarding, there's bugger all you could do about it, it's an enormously difficult condition to fight.
I can't see an issue with someone (maybe not you, if you think that even with shameless and OTT grovelling she'll still not be able to get past what you said) saying,

• You do want to move house
• That will involve packing all this up
• The estate agent says you'll be able to sell faster if a lot of the stuff isn't in view when potential buyers come round
• Why not pack up 3/4 stuff now and put it in storage ready for the move
• Moving will be easier too as packing will have been mainly done already

Of course the concern is that the stuff in storage will stay there and the new place will fill up with more stuff, so whoever's helping with all this should try to ensure movers are paid to take stuff from old house AND STORAGE and unpack it all at new house.

I speak as someone who also had some instability and losses (really nothing all that unusual, but still) in life, and I'm not the best at chucking stuff out. Nonetheless the house is OK. I do find chuckouts very draining though. And there are quite a few boxes in the loft that have needed sorting out for decades...

I have a friend like this. I made a comment once and bitterly regretted it as she then did not talk to me for two years. We are back in touch and socialise together, but she has never invited me back into her house which is sad.

From what I understand, hoarders attach real intrinsic value to every item. Everything and anything "might be useful one day". They have a point…..it might find a use one day, but most of us chuck it out regardless.

I think the word “hoarder” is thrown around too much nowadays. The trend is minimalism so anyone who has books, ornaments, Knick knacks etc, it’s seen as “clutter” that needs to be got rid of.

I spent a week staying in someone’s minimalist home a while back. The person was great company, but by the end I felt genuinely depressed! It was one of those homes with everything white & grey, barely a personal item to be seen. I was desperate to get back to my own colourful “cluttered” home.

I have a lot of things but everything is extremely organised. It makes me feel comfortable and happy. Fair enough, your cousin will need to move some stuff for photos but aside from that, let her live how she wants.

I agree. It would offend the minimalists, though, if I were to say they lived in a sterile wasteland devoid of human warmth and intellectual and artistic stimulation.

I spent over 40 years living with someone who kept everything, as I have already stated in previous posts . I wasn't asking to live in a minimalist desert devoid of any colour with no books or way of listening to music etc. What I wanted was to be able to open doors to rooms and not be confronted by floor to ceiling boxes of 'memorabilia' and surfaces that had been similarly covered. There is a happy medium where we keep items which are beautiful or perform some function and don't cause anxiety to one party in a relationship. I don't need the 8 plus record decks my late husband left along with all of the other stuff that he accumulated, and quite frankly neither did he. I miss him now he has gone, but not the 'stuff'.

The hoarding TV shows don't really help as they only show the true extremes (as that's what makes "good" TV) - so of course your cousin is offended to be labelled in the same way as people who hoard animals, rotting food and their own waste.

But you don't have to be messy or unhygienic to hoard. The A&E programme "Hoarders" has occasionally featured people whose homes are very hygienic but who just can't cope with throwing things out. It didn't impact them in their thirties but by the time they retire and have 60-70 years of "stuff" it's a lot more difficult an issue to tackle.

@Fenella123In a way it doesn't matter, because if it is hoarding, there's bugger all you could do about it, it's an enormously difficult condition to fight.

Totally agree. Where does it realistically get you to label it hoarding? The way forward is still the same - she needs to either get rid of stuff or reduce the amount on show if she wants to make it easier to sell the house. And if she's not happy doing that she'll need to make peace with it potentially taking longer. Having a label for it is interesting but I don't think is of any practical use in the short term.

I say this as someone who often finds it hard to let go of sentimental items. Much more productive to focus on what you need to do than say "this is me so it can't be changed".

agree @bluenameblue I'm happy with my 41 year old teddy. I also enjoy all my race medals. may have been said but I've seen some awful estate agent photos where the tenants clearly didn't clear up at all the photographer/agent went ahead, bit odd that they'd say that 🤔

@milkyaqua nailed it :)

Thanks all for the replies.

Just to clarify a few bits.

It's not that I want to label it. It's that I truly wanted to know others' opinions on where being sentimental stops and hoarding starts.

And I think the answer is "it depends on how big the house is"

I've no need or desire to label her. Just the exchange we had at the weekend has been playing on my mind and I didn't want to bring it up again.

Also - my aim was never to accuse her or anything. I was clearing and sorting one of the many shelves. And was talking about how I couldn't believe she still had all of the trolls we played with as kids. (They're all still there, sat on a shelf in her living room.)

They did make me smile and I sort of throw away said something along the lines of "there is a benefit to being a hoarder".

And I felt she super shut down then. But we still got quite a bit clear and boxed up.

It's the bedrooms that are going to be the real challenge. And the bathrooms as sooooo many toiletries and stuff. Like 10 toothbrushes for 3 people.

And I really wanted to do the bathroom as I felt that was one I could make tons of progress with quickly and actually bin stuff not just box and shove in the garage but after that I was too nervous to 'help' much.

I think you are showing a lot of sensitivity around the issue. Don’t berate yourself. See my previous post about a slip of the tongue and then regretting it. My friend cut me off for years because of it. It was obviously a super sensitive subject and it hit a nerve. Deep down I believe she knows there’s a problem. But it’s not for me to point it out.

Yeah she's a hoarder
Just a mild one

But EA is eight, I can't bear to look at house photos on Rightmove when they are heavily cluttered with peoples stuff. Visually it is off putting and suggest to me they lack storage space and that it's a dirty home . I find it hard to imagine they move everything to clean under or behind regularly and that if they can't get rid of old dusty toys then I'd bet they don't get rid of outdated electrics and piping or have noticed mould and damp patches where the air can't circulate as much

Now that may not be entirely fair but that's what the buyers will be thinking, everyone knows you have to work to declutter and clear to sell your home.

I dunno how the clinical definitions are made.

I only know that adult DD would literally never throw away anything that wasn't meant to be disposable. And even some of the disposable stuff she'd be slow to toss. She was like this as small child & of course, expected us to store it all forever.

I'm talking dresses that she outgrew age 5, first reading books, old water bottles, broken backpacks / toys / everything, empty make up boxes, etc. Plus every toy, bits of broken jewellery, old pillows...

She's made progress in last few years in being able to toss clothing she genuinely doesn't like. It is unhealthy to find it so hard to get rid of stuff.

My sister is like this - she still has every toy she owned as a child, all her adult children's toys , their childhood clothing on racks under the house . She has binders for every year of her marriage ( 35 years) with every paid bill, invoice etc .Every letter she has ever received. Hundreds of bolts of fabric , scores of boxes of buttons and craft things. Thousands of spare bicycle parts from a boyfriend who sold his shop years ago and dumped his stuff at her place . Her 5 bedroom house is full of "stuff", and the 4 unused bedrooms cannot be entered because there is stuff piled up right to the doors.

She doesn't see herself as a hoarder because there isn't any rubbish piled up , like on TV. But even though she needs to sell up and move into something more suitable ( and to release some money for herself) , she can't move because "where would I put all my things ??"

I can't go there any more, it's just too much for me. You can't move in there.

It's hoarding.

FGS.The only problem is that she wants to sell her house and it's too cluttered to look good on the estate agent's website.

So she needs to put things in boxes and get them out of the way while the estate agent takes pictures. You could help her if you really wanted.

Unless she has a warehouse at the bottom of the garden she'll have to put it back. When people come round to view the place they might be driven screaming from the house by her collection of Sylvanian Families or they might be normal people who'll know she'll take all her stuff with her and concentrate on things like the price and how close to the station and a good school it is.

You've already said it's not dirty or like Mr Trebus's house off the telly and yet you and all the other neat freaks are trying to diagnose her with a psychological disorder.

She likes it. Maybe she thinks you could do with a few more bits of stuff but is too polite to say.

X post. Thanks for the update. You could have put that in the OP.

It's good that you're helping to tidy things so the photos can be taken. If she will accept your help again don't suggest throwing out anything clearly sentimental - toys, baby clothes, books for instance. Put them in boxes. Do say: "The bathroom looks really nice doesn't it? Do you need all these toothbrushes or shall I bin some of them?" Then try it with the other rooms but don't say the words "hoard", "hoarder" or "hoarding". That only makes people feel defensive and freaky and like they are in a Channel 4 programme which is ostensibly highlighting a social problem but which is in fact made for people to point and laugh at while sitting on their grey velour sofas.

If's not your problem if she finds it difficult to sell her house. I'm sure she will do eventually because people who really want to buy a house will overlook most things if it's structurally sound and the price is right.

If it's not a health or fire hazard and she's happy in it then there's not much else you can or should do except go back to your own home which looks the way you like it.

I think the average elderly person who has a cluttered home isn't necessarily a hoarder. I think it is more to do with life cycles and "nest" building.

To generalise massively , we get married and have a relatively clutter free existence before DC. We are full of oestrogen. We build a family and even a pair of bootees takes on immense significance, and then all the toys and clothing and "stuff" enters the house. And it's at that point we accumulate proper furniture and accumulate things that are about material comfort more than absolute necessity, such as framed pictures and maybe "best' dinner plates and glasses and extra sets of bed linen.

Then you reach "peak possession" when the DC are teens, our oestrogen falls away, and as they start moving out, we have more time, we declutter and downsize and get rid. Except some people don't. And then they get old or ill and can't. And it all runs away with them.

But this pattern is changing I think. For a start, steady jobs and homes, are a lot harder to come by and we move more. Property is vastly more expensive. More people rent. And rent for longer, Houses are smaller. Fewer people live in the same family house for twenty years. Hence the need to have a more minimalist existence which can be packed up and moved easily. Decorating trends tend to mirror economic peaks and troughs.

And in our parents time, possessions such as furniture, weren't as easily available as they are now. You had to save up and there wasn't a great deal of choice. Brown furniture was heavy and solid. Now you can go to IKEA and it's all there in one shop. Easy to put up, and take down, so they view it as more disposable I think! Hence younger people favouring a much less personal, uncluttered, minimalist space.

Personally, I think it's essential to declutter mahoosively before every house move and contrary to what a pp said, never, ever take on a storage unit unless it's for a few weeks to facilitate a move. There are storage units up and down the country rammed full of possessions that no one wants. When it's out of site it's out of mind. And that modest monthly fee adds up. My sil has spent £18,000 storing furniture over 20 years that she has barely visited in that time. Don't do it!

Having observed a few extended family members with hoarding issues I think a lot of people with excess possessions are unable to face themselves as they are now, they are hiding from reality and harking back perhaps to more comfortable times (childhood?) when other people were in charge and made all the difficult life decisions on their behalf, it's an avoidance technique to face the reality of the here and now, a sort of arrested development. Maybe?

Yes I have a friend who keeps things for sentimental reasons and also 'because they might be useful ' not just for her but for her wider family. She is clean and reasonably tidy but it does mean that their house seems a lot smaller than it really should do.