Making accommodations isn't always 'kind' (uni)

[Jourdain11]

I'm interested in knowing general opinions on this. I would accept that the last few years have been tough for students, and UG finalists in particular have had their full course horribly disrupted. But I am struck by how the accommodations made for students have really not helped them, in a large proportion of cases. I work in a uni (London Russell Group, competitive and highly-rated) and the number of students who have requested deferrals and so on for MH reasons is huge. In my role, I pushed back a bit and said that we shouldn't be advocating this as a way of dealing with any level of pressure and anxiety. In some cases it was absolutely necessary, but in others I felt that it was just becoming a pattern or a way of buying more time.

Ultimately, in the careers many of these graduates will go on to have, they will have to work to deadlines and deal with pressure, and part of the uni experience is providing preparation for that.

We now have students who are very upset because they cannot graduate with their peers, who are very anxious because they've deferred half their year's assessments to a one-werk resits period and feel they will not cope, or who are just disappointed that they haven't completed the year and have uncertainty as regards progression. Plus those who have now come to see assessment as an absolutely terrifying and insurmountable thing because we have agreed that they clearly weren't capable of sitting their exams, when they probably were.

Overall, I feel that we need to be encouraging coping strategies and empowering students, rather than encouraging them to opt out on the most tenuous rationale. But some of my colleagues would consider this to be virtually heresy and I'm not sure how we're going to get out of this place we have found ourselves in.

But they aren’t treated terribly. They are paid huge amounts of money, to do an exciting, interesting challenging job that most love.

It’s also a job that requires each person to carry out their own task very well even when the shit hits the fan. If they don’t, everything can go wrong in seconds.

Where were you seeing me treating them badly in what I wrote? I wasn’t trying to imply it, as it really isn’t true.

Another thing we have to work out of them early is attention to detail and the idea of “partial marks” for a decent attempt but the wrong answer.

Forgetting to multiply by -1 is a minor issue in a physics final, it’s an utter disaster when placing an order for half a billion pounds of government bonds.

@theclangersarecoming I agree. From what I see, two factors are at play.

One is that many students are working alongside their degrees, sometimes close to or even full time, to support themselves. Students have always worked during their studies, but I do feel it’s increased a lot and they see their studies as the part-time bit in many cases, rather than work? It needs to fit around their work rather than the other way around.

A second is that students are much more transactional in how they approach their studies. Some of it is fees, for sure. They expect the world on a plate for their £9250. But aren’t prepared to put all of themselves into it. And it’s related to the work: they only have so many hours after their job to do their academic work. So they take a very ‘practical’ approach in many cases: what is the minimum I can get away with? If a seminar has three readings assigned, they might do one or maybe two so they’ve done something. Reading more widely? Forget it, especially anything not immediately accessible from
the online reading list. Ease of access trumps everything. I’m pretty sure a lot of my students rarely set foot in a library despite studying a humanities subject. There is no leeway in their lives for things taking longer than expected, such as research for an essay. And since extensions are so easy to come by, they simply ask for 2 more weeks because of ‘anxiety’ and there we go.

What a lot of people don't seem to appreciate is that MH is a spectrum, just like physical health. You can have a period of feeling a bit stressed or nervous or down for a few days just as you could feel physically under the weather if you were run-down or had a cold. It doesn't mean that you have a MH condition, just that you experienced a period of poor MH from which you then recovered.

Oh and I totally agree with the comments about abysmal mh provision for those in crisis. But that's not new and it isn't needed by the majority.

As for millennials being disillusioned by the lack of jobs for life and cushy retirements, come on! Those haven't been a thing for generations.

What was happening between July 2019 and March 2020? What was happening between July 2021 and now?

The truth is, unless you work in medicine there's been 1 shitty, traumatic year then near normality. Not 3 years of anything.

The strikes have been pretty disruptive too.

And since extensions are so easy to come by, they simply ask for 2 more weeks because of ‘anxiety’ and there we go.

This is why there should be an evidence requirement.

If a seminar has three readings assigned, they might do one or maybe two so they’ve done something. Reading more widely? Forget it, especially anything not immediately accessible from the online reading list.

This year (and this is a first) we have had to deal with students who are quite brazen about the fact that they haven’t done, and won’t do, any reading. This is a subject that is taught predominantly by seminars, which can’t function if students don’t do the preparatory reading. Essay “research” done entirely via Google, etc.

@GCAcademic I agree. It’s appalling. When I was an UG (only 10 years ago) we wouldn’t dare to show up without having done something! Something has shifted for sure.

@Jourdain11 the evidence requirement has been brought back for us now. But students just ask a GP (who freely admit as a body that their training is MH is minimal) who writes a vague letter mentioning anxiety, and that’s their ‘evidence’. But beyond requiring a psychologist’s report, I don’t know what can be done. I’d say 90% of our mit circs requests are MH-based now.

It’s worrying and we’re beginning to see it in recent graduates at work. A lot of these graduates are going to end up failing as no one is going to spoon feed them and give them extensions at work. We have graduates refusing to come in to the office, logging on late and logging off early, taking very long lunch breaks and are no way doing their hours. Others blaming late work on mental health and other conditions and expecting others to pick up the slack. Many won’t last long.

I feel that the evidence should have

Maybe not a popular opinion here, but...

I don't think the pandemic did anything other than bring to the surface the problems that already existed. The higher education sector has expanded massively to include people who, frankly, would be much better off elsewhere. Getting a degree is the right thing for some people. But it has become the gold standard for everyone, whether the right thing it not.

I manage and recruit graduates. So many are not fit for purpose after three+ years in higher education. We are pushing young people into boxes that we think they should fit in, then blaming them when they fail. The pandemic has simply exacerbated those failings. Its a disservice to young people to tell them they need degrees when all there is to offer isdebt and the same jobs they could have had without the degree

I think the universities err on the side of caution due to the number of students who have killed themselves. Seem to be a spate of suicides over the years at universities like Bristol.

Sorry, posted too soon! ... should have to fit the institution's requirements. So say, limiting, unforeseen or excessively disruptive. If it's a longstanding issue (known MH condition or issue) it should be covered by their adjustments/learning plan or whatever. We do have a wording and I'd say that at least 75% of the 'evidence' we are currently compelled to accept meets its requirements. This is as much the institution's issue as the students'.

I think the problem starts long before students get to uni. Students taking GCSE and A levels expect to be spoonfed through the course. The pressure on teachers to improve results year on year mean that everything is thrown at the exam year students to push more and more of them through to higher grades.

In my last few years of teaching I had to write entire GCSE and A level courses from scratch. The language in the text books was just too difficult for many students so I rewrote the lot in easy to understand chunks of learning. I spent hours seeking out video clips. I wrote songs and created memory aids. I gave up hours and hours of my own time to put on revision sessions and pre exam crammer sessions. This is not the usual planning and prep I would expect to do as part of my professional work. It is hand holding and baby steps for students we are supposed to be encouraging to become independent learners.

At A level students are given essay plans and model answers to as many protential exam questions as possible. I hated this. It stiffles any creativity and free thinking, but it all goes to help push up those grades. Students learn answers parrot fashion, often with no real understanding of the subject matter.

The very idea that they could help themselves by reading books or exploring other areas connected to the topics is utterly alien to all but the very best of students. If it isn't in a handout or a powerpoint they don't want to know. Even then, reading the handouts on their own is out of the question. They want to read through them in class with a highlighter pen in hand. Essays were frequently cut and paste efforts from the internet - and the tantrums and parental calls when they are challenged about this and instructed to do the essay again.......

This thread is really interesting.

My kids are too young for university but I've noticed a huge trend in their age groups for 'having anxiety'. We've had discussions where I've explained the difference between 'having' anxiety and feeling anxious about some difficult things, which is entirely normal for all humans.

You see it on social media; on LinkedIn young graduates are under the impression that talking daily about their mental health helps them 'build their brand' and people posting lists of a dozen things they won't do so don't even offer to interview them if they're expected to, for example, wear corporate clothes or travel to an office.

I think it's great to redress the balance between what the employer needs and what the employer wants, but for me right now it's swinging too far, and you can't say that on LinkedIn without being absolutely hounded and called a facist.

Meanwhile, my 22 year old graduate is probably not going to make it past her probationary period because she keeps coming to work, pissing off to the toilet with her phone for 20 minutes, crying about her boyfriend, and then last week took the morning off to try to phone her GP.

When I talk to her, she says 'I have anxiety issues' and that's supposed to make it acceptable for her to actually be working for maybe half the time she's actually in the office.

I seriously worry that the huge focus on mental health is contributing to a sort of slow epidemic of issues, and that if you don't have any, you're not special or interesting.

I teach sixth form and it is EXACTLY the same for us and I feel nobody else really appreciates it outside our environment.

I teach a vocational course that I have taught in one form or another for 20 years. It doesn’t attract the most academic students so I am very used to freak outs, panic, anxiety, etc.

I am also very very familiar with, coming up to deadline time, students panicking, crying, telling me they can’t do it, worrying they’re behind, coming in and cramming or working all hours and so on. I’ve had to give a few extensions in my time although honestly this has always been very rare. Usually what happens is that fear kicks in, they work like hell for three days and get enough in to pass at least. I mean this has ALWAYS been what happens (and they know they haven’t got enough way, way before this point!)

This year, for the first time ever, no fear seemed to kick in. At all. Students shrugged when being told they would fail (not an idle threat, the actual truth!). For the first time ever in my teaching career I went into folders after deadline and the majority were not even at a pass. And trust me, these students had been so spoonfed and hand-held up to that point there wasn’t the slightest chance they didn’t know what to do. I’d had several discussions with each about what was needed and ran a tonne of extra sessions to allow them to catch up. But it simply never occurred to me that they just wouldn’t do it! Because students always DO do it. Always.

It is honestly like it’s a completely different breed of kid. And I am at a loss how to get through to them because apparently I don’t speak their language.

This doesn't sound like the university I work in at all. We have been back on campus full time all year and had in person exams, extensions require evidence. Its not really the same comparing students now to 20 years ago - the system is completely different because of the huge financial burden on students now.

I think the moan about MH excuses might be reasonable if your university provides a great MH support service, ours is definitely underfunded and experiencing huge demand. Probably, a couple of chats with a specialist would sort out most students, but they don't get seen because of the number of students who MUST be seen in the next week as they are actively suicidal. So by the time the student with a small problem gets to speak to the right person their small problem has become a huge problem with a massive impact on their life.

@AtomicBlondeRose it’s wild isn’t it and really makes me think about how I am parenting my DC. I want to raise them as confident, capable people. I can’t say whether they will suffer with ongoing MH issues obviously but raising resilient children who rely on themselves for problem solving is important to me.

I am surprised at the lack of empathy in some of these posts. My DS was the one whose appeal was turned down and ended up failing his 2nd year. He started to get unwell in Dec 2019 (MH social anxiety which led to acute social paralysis) and I got him an online qualified counsellor @£90 per hour (probably paid for 20 sessions?). He was flagged for MH at the uni and got about 4 sessions but not with a qualified counsellor. All my DS wanted was a fresh start and to restart the year. People with MH don't always made the best decisions BTW.
By this time he had already committed to a houseshare which we ended up paying for A WHOLE YEAR never having stepped foot in it.
The unpleasant smug email he got from the department was quite shocking to say he had failed as well as the incredibly complex appeals process which we had no appetite for (I have a full-time job thanks).
DS worked for a few months and is now doing a compressed degree somewhere else - oh yeah we are having to top up his fees by £10k.
We had to appeal student finance (compressed 2 years count as 3 years). Luckily, having paid for a counsellor, they could help with the student finance appeal.

The scepticism here is very damaging, no one here knows what poor MH looks like!

On the whole I agree, however I also think there are significant mitigating factors.

My DS has just graduated from a competitive subject at a RG uni. His 2nd and 3rd years were the opposite of normal.

The uni struggled to keep the technology working for remote lectures, it would break down/disconnect at some point. To try and resolve this, the uni put a limit on the number of students allowed to view each lecture. There were never enough spaces to accommodate the number of students who were trying to connect. Promises to run the lectures again never materialised.

His 2nd & 3rd years were also blighted by strike action. Of the 64 weeks he should have received tuition during his 2nd & 3rd years, he received a grand total of 27 weeks; 20 of those were online.

I was very proud that my DS only asked for one extension (I was hospitalised following a seizure), however I can completely understand why some students felt they needed additional time due to the lack of teaching they received.

Student perspective here who agrees with you! I’ve now graduated but had to suspend my third year last year due to ill health (physical issues meant I spent over three months in and out of hospital trying to stabilise my condition ). It reached the point where the senior tutor and one of my doctors strongly advised me to suspend as they didn’t think I could feasibly finish the year (this was in April). The tutor also said that they’d had about 10% of my cohort do so due to COVID and its impact on their manual health, which surprised me as I was trying fairly hard to stick at my degree and was pretty set again suspending.

I definitely noticed an uptick over the past year or so in how often people were getting extensions, including a housemate who took all the ones offered due to Covid as simply extended deadlines. I would say that for some people suspending for a few months and coming back is the right thing to do, as I’d have barely passed last year and did pretty well this year. I still wish I hadn’t had to suspend as it’s something I’m always going to have to explain and I definitely don’t think it’s something that should be done lightly.

Not only that, but it's not a totally innate thing to develop skills like that. In large part it comes from being required to do it. So even students that could rise to the occasion won't, and they will end up learning to fail.

I agree with you. As you say, sometimes it is definitely necessary for someone’s MH to be given a break - but I think for it to become this norm is actually quite detrimental. Avoidance and procrastination, hiding from issues rather than addressing them, and having that kind of behaviour affirmed, can cause more mental health damage to many in the long run. It becomes a damaging habit in the long run and one that is hard to get back out of.

I don’t know if anxiety is on the rise or if people don’t understand the difference between anxiety and feeling anxious - it’s normal to feel anxious about exams. Trying to get an essay in on time can be stressful. It’s ok to feel these things, it’s not dangerous. And sometimes when you are having a bad time or a bad day - not full blown actual anxiety or depression, just normal human emotions - getting on with everyday stuff can actually help. Seems a controversial thing to say these days, but from personal experience that’s how it is.
I’ve had a day at work where I look back and think I should have just stayed at home - I was mentally really struggling, shaking, and was probably close to having a nervous breakdown. I’ve also had what are simply bad days, and getting on with work gave me a good temporary distraction and reprieve from feeling low, and at the end of the day I saw things clearer for it.

Young people are being encouraged to be more in touch with their feelings, and that would be good except the wrong messages are getting sent out somehow in how this is being taught or presented to them because they are in fact completely out of touch with how they feel and seem to misinterpret normal human emotions.

I don't think it's at all true to say that people don't know what mental health problems look like. It's because we know what they look like that we can recognise them - and their absence.

One of my most memorable cases this year was with a student who had virtually gone AWOL due to severe anxiety and phobias. With the interventions I helped to put in place and the representations I made on his behalf, he was able to complete most of his assessments, regain some confidence and has only a couple of outstanding deferred assignments to submit in August. But a lot of it is luck. I was fortunate that he turned up one day and was able to engage and he was lucky that he caught me rather than my colleague (who was extremely not on side with him by that point).

But I'm talking about students who are avoiding deadlines on tenuous grounds because they believe they will gain an advantage - and it then proves not to be the case (in the ways I've mentioned in my OP).

I agree with you @Jourdain11 - although it’s heresy to say so!

But they’re adults and we really did have to make adjustments because of lockdowns. However, when I’ve advised undergrads to just do it, rather than putting it off to the never never time of August (now only 2 weeks away) individual students always stonewalled me.

But the last 2 years really made me think about the difference between this generation and young men and women in WW2. My undergraduates are really lovely kids, creative, sparky, kind - but as a cohort, they tend to lack resilience and grit to just get on with things. They tend to catastrophic sense their situations, rather than putting head down and grinding through.

When I was an undergrad 30 years ago, there was very little care for mental health. That was not necessarily a good thing, but I think we’ve overcorrected. I do really worry about how otherwise my bright lovely students will function outside of the environment of pastoral care (and sometimes pandering to weakness) that my undergrads enjoy.

Although I do hear some horrendous stories of dysfunctional parenting as well as outright attempts to sabotage students’ progress by families.

These are broad generalisation of course, but you only have to read the Higher Ed board here to catch the tendency to defensiveness and over- protection which are the hallmarks of helicopter parenting.