Class system in countries that are not UK

[kavalkada]

I have been reading bar thread and thoroughly enjoying it, but it got me thinking. There are lot of threads on mumsnet about class system in UK and although I have known about it from books, movies and tv (Cassandra taking Rodney home for the first time in Only fools and horses was a real eye opener when I was a kid) Mumsnet was a revelation. Now when I visit UK I can not go in the Waitrose not thinking "oh, this is where middle class shops". Btw, where dooes the upper and aristocrats shoop? Food hall in Harrods or is that just for tourists?

But I digress. I know there are lot of mumsnetters all around the world so I was wondering about class system around the world.
I'll start with me own country. I live in Croatia, small country in central Europe (or eastern Europe for everybody else who doesn't live in central Europe).
I'm not sure class system exists in my country. Now please, hear me out, I know it sounds strange.
We have rich people, poor people, middle earning people, but because of the way our sociaty is structured, we mix a lot. I'll just explain some points that come often on this threads.

Private schools - we do not have them. Well, that is not exactly true. We have private schools and private universities, but people who go there are usually rich people who want their kids to have it easy while in school, because they know they can't fail. Everybody else goes to state schools which are considered better. So rich and poor people sit together in classrooms from first day and they continue till the end of the university. At this moment we have a scandal because presiden't wife tried to persuade a teacher to give her child an A instrad of B, child goes to state school.

Kindergartens (nursery) - there are private kindergartens of course, but most of the people, rich and poor, want their children to go to state kindergartens. They're very cheap, heavily subsidized by the local government, so child of the single mum on minimal wage will probably be in the same group with child of the rich parents. All teachers in state kindergarten have to have a university degree, so that is probably a part of it.

Shops - this one I envy UK - no shops for rich and poor. Croatian's equivalent of Waitrose has the same prices as Lidl, so where ever I go, I pay the same price. We all pay Waitrose prices in all the country and every time I go to UK I'm surprised at Lidl prices how cheap they're. And don't tell me about yellow stickers, I so wish we have them.

Housing - most of us lives in apartments, no houses with gardens for most people unless you live in the country. Here, things change a little bit. There are now some new apartment developments where people with high income live, but there are not so much of them, although I guess it will change with time. In the buliding where I live there are 28 apartments and there are people who work all sorts of jobs, from cleaners to doctors and bank managers. Our children all go to same kindegarten,. play at the same playground and later go to elemntary school (it ends at 14 here). After that, they're divided by what high school they go to, but not before that.

Language - there is no upper class Croatian or working class Croatian. There are dialects in some part of the country, but we all speak one standarized language.,

There are lot of things I could write about, this is just a small part of it. What about other countries?

Sorry for my english, there is little chance somebody will read this, but...

This is really interesting. I’ve been to Croatia a few times. Do you not have a ruling elite? Those who work in the upper echelons of society? Am I right there’s quite a bit of nepotism that goes on? I have experience of Germany. There are definitely class signifiers. I’ve noticed there how certain accents looked down on as ‘working class’ also the way people dress. I think with the U.K. so much is linked with our school system and of course the fact we still have a royal family. Even amongst the private schools, there are ones middle class kids go to and then elite boarding schools for the upper class kids.

In urban Mexico we have three defined classes . Lower / Middle / Upper. Most believe they're some sort of middle class (my nanny -not grandma-) thought she was for example

Middle classes really aspire to be like the upper, they all go to private schools (that will teach English) and try to live a "decent life".

There are supermarkets for the different classes too

I would say I'm upper middle. Went to an IB/private school, had live in people helping us (nanny, cleaner, and gardener). Went to many after schools and holidays abroad 2-3 times per year.

Also I am wondering is your flatter class system due having been under a kind of communist system in Yugoslavia?

Central European and very much the same like you. Mix a lot so doesn't feel as divisive and people don't have such big chips on their shoulders like here about it. Never have i met person from my country whou would say "well as working class I didn't have it easy and didn't get chance to go to good school really"... Still baffled. Now we apparently have couple of private elementary schools?

Accents-regional

Houses, we have lots of houses, but cities is apartment living. Kids often share until one buggers off. Same mixed in apartment buildings and areas in most cases. Few exceptions of course.

Never heard of food bank, but would be considered poor because family of 4 can happily live in 2 bed🤷🏻

Everywhere has issues, of course! But even after all that time I find the strong class influence here baffling.

Yes, there is a lot of nepotism. That is the main reason young people leave. But it is connected with ruling party (we have our own Tories), and not with school and accent.

Communism is definitley the reason. Social structure that we have (our own NHS), subsidized kindergarten, lack of private schools is the remain of the system we had from 1945 till 1990. It changes, but slowly.

It sounds similar. We also do not have food banks (there are few, but not many) and schooling is pretty muvh universal across classes. Accents are regional but it is funny when you walk with a friend and talk to her, she meets a friend from her region, starts talking with her own accent, then to switch to standard language when she starts talking to you. I love when that happens.

I guess I would be considered poor in UK because I have two children and live in a two bedroom apartment.
But from what I see, benefits are much better in UK. Nobody can live on croatian benefits, unless you have 5 or more children and live in the poorest part of the country. Even then, it would be a strech.

Very interesting thanks for your reply @kavalkada It is so interesting how history shapes this idea of class in each country and in particular the legacy of communism. My partner grew up in Germany born in east 80s DDR and moved west in 90s many in the west looked down on those from the east there is still stark disparity between the two sides with the east being poorer and vast wealth in western cities like Munich and Hamburg.

I grew up watching Televisa soaps and it sounds like a lot like what I saw there.

I was always wondering how Germany adapted after the fall of the Berlin wall. Is it different now?

I guess I would be considered poor in UK because I have two children and live in a two bedroom apartment.
But from what I see, benefits are much better in UK. Nobody can live on croatian benefits, unless you have 5 or more children and live in the poorest part of the country. Even then, it would be a strech.

Same. But while benefits might be better, I still don't see logic in getting 3 bed house when you need to go to foodbank.

Don't take me wrong we still have poor people, but if you are poor in our it means actually poor with 6 people in 1 bed apartment. If anyone remting 3 bed house claimed poverty there, it would raise eyebrows with "just move to smaller then?". However, now with inflation... It might change.

It's really difficult to understand the class system of a country other than your own (by birth or very long term residency)

Everyone going to the same schools doesn't change people's class, but it does mean people mix more widely.

Only a tiny proportion of the British population go to private schools, especially at primary age. And there isn't that much choice of school as it's done by distance from home, so reflects the affluence of an area. Unless you are going to go in for bussing ( as tried in the US) then the idea that everyone goes to the local school isn't quite what it seems

Even in the supposed class-free US, there are huge differences between schools based on their location, and everyone can tell the difference between a Boston philanthropist and an Arkansas trailer dweller just by looking and hearing the first sentence out of their mouth.

I think what is often meant is that transitioning between classes can be faster, and that straightforward cold hard cash is paramount

In Croatia it is different. Again, during communism people didn't have much places where they could invest their money (although you could have a hairdresser salon, a shop and thing like that) so they built houses.

The reasult is that we have lot of real estate rich, but money poor people.
It is not rare to have family who has a big apartment in the center of big town with second home at the sea, and have no money at all.

Yes, there is a lot of nepotism. That is the main reason young people leave. But it is connected with ruling party (we have our own Tories), and not with school and accent

So that's your class system then

And you can probably recognise who's who within it.

Similar in many former communist countries, where the cadre-kids are the new privileged class.

Oh no, that's the aame. People inherited @kavalkada and acan get in that situation. It's different with rentals.

Do you have multigenerational housing? Or not with more apartments? We have quite a lots of older houses being basically two units. Grandparents in one, children in another. Not now as much though.

In Australia they have CUBS - Cashed Up Bogans

A bogan their equivalent of a chav, someone in an AC/DC wife-beater doing burn-out rings on a Sunday morning

CUBS also meaning "new money", mostly earned from mining work. The class structure in Australia seeming to be new versus old money, the old money meaning they have a British style private school education spanning generations.

But that is what I'm talking about. Our neighbourhoods are because of our compleex past still not divided between poor and rich and middle class people. Children go to school based on location and because there is no need to invest more in rich neighbourhound school, they all get the same piece of cake. There is more difference betwen local governments because there'll be always more money for schools in capital then a school in one small village.

Yes, we have multigenerational housing, but not that much in cities. None of my friends or family live with their parents and grandperents, juct nuclear family. Actually, I know just one girl who lives in the same house as her in laws, but even then we're talking about semi detached house on the same big plot with garden.
But, there is still lot of people who live with their parents after having their own children.

So there is a class system but, like many other things, it's somewhat different in different countries

How much of the housing stock was reallocated on political lines before the death if Tito? How was it re-allocated during the conflicts around the end of FY and the massive refugee influx?

You're probably right, although it is a bit hard to see it that way because we have half of the country working for a state as a employer abd they have lot of benefits that majority od people working in private sector do not have.

But that is our big problem and one of the reasons we're at at bottom of the EU list.

For that I could write a book, and I'm not smart.

Numbers say that iz 1990., the year before Yugloslavia ceased to exist app. 26 per cent of population lived in social, state apartments, do almost three thirds lived in private accomodation. It is easy to see that majority of people had to sort their own accomodation.
Not one single person from my family got s social housing, they all bulit houses in small villages, we're talking about famlies where everybody had their own land and friends and families would build on holidays and weekends.

People got apartments based on their connection with communist party and depending on the company they worked in. Richer companies built lot of hosuing for their workers, poorer did not.

@kavalkada The east is still a lot poorer, there was a lot of brain drain from east to west after the wall came down which I think made this worse. Berlin is now a buzzing cosmopolitan city but it's not where the money is. The wealthiest parts of Germany are in the west. West Germans including west Berliners still look down on eastern accents and don't seem to think twice about mocking them there were also certain stereotypes about those from the east being lazy there is a pejorative term 'Ossi' although not sure how much people use this today it was very common when my partner was an eastern kid in the west.

Something I would say signifies being of a lower class in Germany is not speaking English, in general its spoken very widely (especially by the young) but it’s spoken less in east but that’s often the older generation who didn’t learn it at school in the DDR. To me education and class go hand in hand in Germany much in the way middle class brits need cultural capital. Germany doesn’t have much private education (I think there's a little) but their the German state school system still reinforces their class system. It is divided into three tiers. I wonder if similar in Croatia? Academic kids go to gymnasium, middle ability to Realschule and those of lower ability to Hauptschule. This should be meritocratic in theory but its appears to often be middle class kids at the gymnasiums who will then go into have university degrees and high paid jobs.

In the U.K. some areas have grammar schools which are selective at age 11. However it is often middle class kids who go to grammar schools as their parents have paid for tutoring or even been to private primary schools first. Also good comprehensive schools (non selective state schools) are often in affluent areas that only middle classes can afford to live in. So much of it comes down to money but even those who are wealthy in the U.K. can be looked down on for being 'common' (not something I'd say) because they don't have cultural capital that comes with being middle of upper middle class.

I should add my understanding of the German system is through my (as a Brit) observation over years of having a German partner.

Italy is similar to Croatia in many ways. Most children are at state school. My ds (state school) has always had a real mix of classmates including children of well-known politicians, lawyers, surgeons etc. as well as really poor classmates and refugees. My younger children are currently at a private school but it is a lot cheaper than in the UK. The parents there are obviously better off but I wouldn't say they are a different class. Nepotism is rife!

'All the ‘upper class’ old-money Singaporeans that I know:
Grew up living in private housing in traditionally nice neighborhoods like Bukit Timah and Siglap, and have done so for at least two generations
Attended a missionary school like St. Patrick’s or Anglo-Chinese
Own and drive expensive cars
Went overseas for their university education (if they are around my generation or younger)
Have many relatives living overseas in developed countries like the US, UK and Australia
Were born to a considerable amount of wealth.
Do not speak Mandarin as their first language (if they are ethnically Chinese)
Are markedly more transnational/cosmopolitan in their outlook and social network'

I once read this on Quora and i found it interesting because I never considered myself 'upper class' in my country but I can tick off every item on that list (except for the car as I live in London and don't drive).

On the surface, singapore doesn't have a strong class system as 85% of the population lives in public housing . I have cousins and aunts who bought government flats though in my dad's family, no one has bought a government flat as they either live overseas and bought their properties there (myself and my uncle) which makes us ineligible to buy government housing as you need to sell off any private property before you buy a government flat (however you can buy private property as a BTL/investment 5 years after buying a government flat); or managed to buy a freehold landed property as their first property (my dad bought his house with his parents who already owned landed property).

Theoretically, there are national exams in singapore at age 12 similar to the grammar school system in some boroughs/counties in the UK; and there are full scholarships for poorer students so there is technically no barrier to poorer students gaining entry to 'elite schools' (as the elite schools are state run; international schools tend to be for expats and have a very different curriculum; born and bred singaporeans don't tend to opt for them). However, tutoring is a massive thing so I suppose it is similar to the grammar school system here, many of the people who get into the elite schools are from richer families. However at the same time, practice papers are very widely available so an industrious poor child will naturally gain entry over a lazy rich kid as no amount of money can force a child to study if he or she doesn't want to.