Class system in countries that are not UK

[kavalkada]

I have been reading bar thread and thoroughly enjoying it, but it got me thinking. There are lot of threads on mumsnet about class system in UK and although I have known about it from books, movies and tv (Cassandra taking Rodney home for the first time in Only fools and horses was a real eye opener when I was a kid) Mumsnet was a revelation. Now when I visit UK I can not go in the Waitrose not thinking "oh, this is where middle class shops". Btw, where dooes the upper and aristocrats shoop? Food hall in Harrods or is that just for tourists?

But I digress. I know there are lot of mumsnetters all around the world so I was wondering about class system around the world.
I'll start with me own country. I live in Croatia, small country in central Europe (or eastern Europe for everybody else who doesn't live in central Europe).
I'm not sure class system exists in my country. Now please, hear me out, I know it sounds strange.
We have rich people, poor people, middle earning people, but because of the way our sociaty is structured, we mix a lot. I'll just explain some points that come often on this threads.

Private schools - we do not have them. Well, that is not exactly true. We have private schools and private universities, but people who go there are usually rich people who want their kids to have it easy while in school, because they know they can't fail. Everybody else goes to state schools which are considered better. So rich and poor people sit together in classrooms from first day and they continue till the end of the university. At this moment we have a scandal because presiden't wife tried to persuade a teacher to give her child an A instrad of B, child goes to state school.

Kindergartens (nursery) - there are private kindergartens of course, but most of the people, rich and poor, want their children to go to state kindergartens. They're very cheap, heavily subsidized by the local government, so child of the single mum on minimal wage will probably be in the same group with child of the rich parents. All teachers in state kindergarten have to have a university degree, so that is probably a part of it.

Shops - this one I envy UK - no shops for rich and poor. Croatian's equivalent of Waitrose has the same prices as Lidl, so where ever I go, I pay the same price. We all pay Waitrose prices in all the country and every time I go to UK I'm surprised at Lidl prices how cheap they're. And don't tell me about yellow stickers, I so wish we have them.

Housing - most of us lives in apartments, no houses with gardens for most people unless you live in the country. Here, things change a little bit. There are now some new apartment developments where people with high income live, but there are not so much of them, although I guess it will change with time. In the buliding where I live there are 28 apartments and there are people who work all sorts of jobs, from cleaners to doctors and bank managers. Our children all go to same kindegarten,. play at the same playground and later go to elemntary school (it ends at 14 here). After that, they're divided by what high school they go to, but not before that.

Language - there is no upper class Croatian or working class Croatian. There are dialects in some part of the country, but we all speak one standarized language.,

There are lot of things I could write about, this is just a small part of it. What about other countries?

Sorry for my english, there is little chance somebody will read this, but...

Yes OP it's a bit like the soaps! Although my DH thought my house was a bit "tatty" in comparison to what he's seen on TV

Doesn't it depend on which part of the country this is in? I mean, I live in a 2 bed flat in London but I don't really consider myself poor. I have no children, but am planning on buying a 3 bed flat pre kids. I think its quite normal in London to live in flats. Most of the properties in kensington are flats and they are over a million even for the cheapest flats.

I must say though, that as I am singaporean and my husband is a Jewish Londoner (who only wants to live in north west london), we would prioritize location over house type. An older lady once told me that when her flat in hampstead was built, british people didn't want to live in it so it was the jewish, spanish portugese immigrants who bought it i.e. her grandparents. I do see this now; the people who are more willing to buy flats are europeans, Hongkongers, people from the middle east but they are not necessarily poor! its a cultural thing.

I can’t comment on E Europe. I can imagine that 50 years of communism must have had an influence.

I think there are a lot of myths about class structures outside the UK, the main being that class doesn’t exist in other countries. This is not true. Most countries have some sort of class system.

The key difference between the UK and others is that in the UK class is not primarily about money. It’s about other subtle signals such as how you speak, where you shop and where you went to school.

But take the US for example. It’s always said to be a classless society but in my experience it’s far more segregated than Britain. But the segregation is explicitly about money rather than these other markers.

The problem with the British class system isn’t that it’s more acute than in other countries. It’s that it’s much harder to understand.

I agree with the view that having a history under communism has reduced the class divides. My son in law is from a previous communist country and so is my daughters best friend and they have both said that whilst there are still richer and poorer people in their countries the divide is much much less and less ingrained - as in social mobility is much easier.

My son in law was fully funded by his home country to study a Masters and PHD at Oxford and says whilst he gets paid more here than he would in his own country he would never have got the educational opportunities to get his higher qualifications if he had been born in the UK.

The school system is similar in Croatia. We start school at 6 or 7 years old (dividing date 30th march) and next 8 years we all go to same school. After that children with best grades go to gymnasiums, those that are middle ability to 4 year old schools where they learn something specific and are able to go to university after that (could be like german Hauptschule). The last group choose vocation schools that last three years. They can also go to university after high school, but because of the program of their school it is much more difficult for them to pass final exams that are the same for the same country and that are ticket to university, although lot of universities have their own entrance exams.

In other countries, there are the 'elite' and the 'regular' people.

For example, in my home country in singapore, there have always been people who lived in private housing (large house with garden), spoke English as a first language, had highly paid jobs, sent their children to overseas universities. My family fit that description. But however, there isn't snobbery about people who live in public housing (my dad kept suggesting I should buy a government flat before he realized that I couldn't because I already own a flat in London) as 85% of the population live in government housing. In any capitalist society, there are always products/lifestyles which are more expensive, and the people who have such lifestyles (and have always had them for generations) would be deemed as the 'upper class'. However in the UK, what is different is that there are so many different classes, all with their own specific identity and social norms i.e. working class pride and solidarity etc. This was very new to me when I moved to the UK. Or the vitriol that is constantly leveled at what is deemed to be the underclass (people on benefits) by tabloids.

Thank you all for answering. It is fascinating reading about different class system around the world.

Thank you for starting this thread. It makes fascinating reading. It is interesting that the legacy of communism in the former Yugoslavia isn't necessarily a negative thing. Also that food banks aren't needed in some of these places.

It goes to show that there is too much disparity between the haves and have nots in the UK. I do my bit by donating to food and clothes banks, but clearly not enough people do. But really, we shouldn't be needing them at all.

Tories out.

I’ve lived in US and Australia it’s certainly part of society but it’s not as intrenched and especially in the US money is celebrates more there isn’t that playing down of wealth. Bizarrely the most elite private schools the pupils have that look of private school boys here have the hand me down clothing floppy hair it’s a private school look.

my family in Sri Lanka are obsessed with class but it’s different it’s the fear of looking poor which means everyone else in society looks down on you. They are certainly not wealthy but have housemaids this elevates their status as does our family background (especially if mixed European/fairer skinned)

since my ds went to private school I have realised how important class indicators are to so many people. It’s like a different world to me and has really opened my eyes to the little indicators. Ds doesn’t see himself as posh but he has the look, using terms I do not and others will recognise that he is mc

There are good and bad things on both side of the fence.
Sometimes when I read Mumsnet it seems to me like it is easier for not so rich to live in Croatia, although I'm aware that can't be true because UK is much richer country.
There are things that are easier like cheap childcare, but on the other hand social housing is almost non existent so young families have trouble getting their own home, price of real estate exploded in last two decades and as a result we all live in overcrowded apartments. And waiting times for MR or some other medical procedures is horrendous, although if you do not live in a rural village it is easy to see your GP and dentist.

What I find striking about the UK is the lack of family support for poor people. Most middle class young people I know get gifted large deposits or get to live with family for a long time while working in London (and hence manage to save up); but for the poor, they are expected to be self sufficient starting from age 18. The state is meant to cover the short fall by paying universal credit and housing benefit but this is often insufficient, hence the food banks.

In singapore everyone (rich and poor) lives with their parents until they marry. They either buy a government flat (subsidized by the government) or they buy a private condo. You are expected to support your parents and also your disabled siblings; your parents can sue you if they can't make ends meet and you don't give them an allowance despite being able to afford it. Most people don't want to sue their children, but the reality is if an elderly person can't make ends meet, the first question the social worker asks them is 'do you have children and do you think they have the funds to support you'. They would visit your children and go through their bank statements to see if they can spare any money. I know women who have no pensions but they live with their children and rent out their flats. Their kids also give them money on top of this. So they are not in poverty the way they would be in the UK. Its not that I disagree with the welfare state. Its just that we are at that stage where it doesn't seem to be functioning very well and that is probably because of the tories. If that is the case, I think we need to adapt some of our expectations to prevent many people in the future falling into poverty. Particularly if there is no state pension in the future.

It is similar in my country, but I do not like it. Children do live with their parents until they marry in lot of cases and it is not unusual to see young people in their 20es and 30es who live high life because their parents pay all the bills, and children spend all their money on luxuries, not all of course, but high percentage. Parents give much more to children them the other way.
Young people in my country usually do not live with roommates, it is usually with parents, boyfriend or girlfriend or alone if you can afford it. Percentage of those who live with roommates is extremely low. A young Croatian is as soon as they can afford it buy his or her own studio, no matter how small it is.
As I said, welfare state is not the greatest so parents when they do get old rely heavily on their children if they can not afford to live on their own.

croatia home ownership rate is 89% which is even higher than singapore at 87%.

Uk home ownership rate is only 63%. i bet in croatia, people are not as obsessed about property as in the UK. for a country so obsessed with home ownership, we have a very low home ownership rate.

I honestly don't see this UK class obsession that I read about on MN translate into real life. Obviously there can be marked differences between classes/groups but no one that I know is hand wringing about where they fit and/or being perceived as a different class.
I honestly don't know anyone who has been gifted a house or even a complete deposit, whereas this seems to be the case for most of MN.

@onthefencesitter the Singaporean model (of supporting your elderly parents) simply would not work in UK society where we are more individualistic by nature. Grandparents are expected to do childcare but no one (apart from non ethnic Brits) would want their parents living with them and perhaps giving up their jobs to look after them in sickness/old age. Both sets of my grandparents had one parent living with them as they were too old/frail to live independently. Both of those sets went into nursing homes when they became too unwell to live alone. Coming to live with us just wasn't even an option.

All the old money Singaporeans. I know absolutely do speak both Mandarin and English perfectly. Some live in the old black and whites since only Singaporeans are allowed to own them. They will preferentially send their children to Raffles etc IF THEY GET IN otherwise Anglo Chinese or other nominally international schools. The best state schools are designed to equip the students as future leaders of the country.
Many go to UNI is US, UK or Ireland although now NUS has become a top 10 Uni so they might stay in Singapore.

my grandma in singapore went to a nursing home too, despite living with my parents for over 25 years at least.My grandparents and dad jointly bought my dad's first home (a 4 bed house), and for a time, my aunt and her boyfriend at that time also lived with us. Then my dad married my mum and had me; and my dad decided to buy a bigger house (mum was pregnant with my sister). My grandparents moved with us and then to the next home after that. My grandparents cared for us while my parents went to work. My dad paid her a small allowance and paid all bills, she also looked after my aunt's kids and my aunt also gave her an allowance and also bought my grandpa a car.

As my grandparents grew older and my grandma got a stroke, my dad employed a domestic helper to care for her at home. However, the domestic helper and my dad both got dengue fever so there was no one to care for my grandma (who was basically bed bound). She went to a nursing home (paid for by my dad) because of that until she got another stroke and passed on :(

So as you can see, my dad ended up supporting my grandparents for the rest of their lives not because he actively wanted to. It was because when he was 25 years old, he decided to buy a big house with them. He always tells me that he could easily have bought a house without them, but the fact is he didn't. I can see in future, if a lot of young people can't afford to buy their homes and it is not viable even when moving 100 miles away, perhaps some people might be tempted to pool resources and buy a large family home.

Certainly if my MIL and my DH and I have jointly bought a home (selling off our flat and my MIL's terraced), we can easily buy a £1.3 million house with enough bedrooms for my DH, my SIL, myself and a future child even in London. my MIL would not need to worry about paying council tax and bills or even food. But I suppose she isn't at that stage where she is worrying about such things as she is still working. However she has no pension except state pension and in the future, if there is no state pension, there may not be luxury of a choice, if you get what i mean. It may even be worse for people who don't own their homes and can't afford rent in old age.

Sorry I seem to be explaining your own country to you so I need to rephrase as well as apologise!
I thought the old money Singaporeans were bilingual in both English and Mandarin as in fact are most Singaporeans aren't they?

they can speak mandarin well , but many of them do tend to speak english at home. hence why i said as a first language. I never spoke Mandarin at home and all my friends spoke English, but I studied chinese literature when I was doing my IB. People still comment that my Mandarin is very 'formal' in style.

Raffles and Anglo-Chinese both charge fees, but my sister and I both got scholarships to attend those schools simply because we got in. This was in 2008 so I am not sure if it applies now, but if you had the required scores for those schools, you would get a scholarship by default, so in a sense, lack of monies was no barrier. I had classmates on financial assistance; and my high school boyfriend was from a very working class family

Are you aged 25-35? It is absolutely very common in London. other than me and DH, I only know one person who wasn't gifted her deposit, and she is an employment solicitor with a law degree from Cambridge (and her partner works in IT). I don't know that for sure, but I think it is likely given her income/type of property that she bought. We both bought modest FTB homes at circa £400k which is below average in London.

As for the rest of the people I know, they either told me their parents gave them their deposits, their parents actually bought them a house or I knew it was certain they got help as their income and the house price just didn't match up i.e. someone on 35k buying a 470k flat as a single person.

I live in South West UK and have always mixed with different classes of people. I don't know anyone who went to private school, everyone just went to the school within their district. Clever kids went to the Grammar school.

I left home at 19 and worked in fairly low paid jobs until my late 20s when I landed a job in the NHS. Now early 40s, still in the same job but my wage has gone up to £38k, not amazing but I'm happy. OH grew up on a council estate with no money but has also worked his way up and is now on £40k. We have 2 kids, 3 bed house with a mortgage, 2 cars, dog,1 holiday a year, little bit of spare money but DD's clubs cost a fair bit. The road I live in has 4 bed detached houses, 3 bed terraced houses and a coach house above a garage. Then around the corner there are housing association flats. It's a complete mixture.

We shop around; Tesco, Sainsbury's, Waitrose, Lidl, M&S. We're not loyal. Often it's wherever is nearest or has delivery slots available.

My sister, on the other hand, has been unemployed for years but started working part time in a shop recently. She lives in a tiny one bed flat, has been only holiday once in her adult life (paid for by my parents), no car, no spare money, my parents top up her rent or else she wouldn't be able to afford it.

I have middle class and working class friends. Not sure what classes as upper class to be honest.

Everyone's accents are different. I'm fairly well spoken but with a northern twang because I was born up North. Some people have West country accents some don't seem to have an accent at all, if that makes sense. My son currently speaks with an American accent because, well, YouTube of course 🙈

Sorry for the essay, I got carried away 🤣

Its ok :) Most young singaporeans are bilingual as we learn both languages at school. However, this is not the case for my parent's generation (people born in the 19. During colonial rule, the british allowed communities to set up their own schools; the Chinese community in particular were extremely prolific and set up many schools where Chinese was the medium of instruction (it means maths and science were taught in Chinese; and English was at best an after thought). There were a lot of missionary schools and they naturally taught in English, and it was the pupils from these schools whose qualifications were recognized by the British and who were able to get jobs. For the chinese educated, they were often unable to get jobs unless they were lucky enough to inherit a business or worked as teachers/journalists. when Singapore gained independence, the government wanted everyone to speak English to a high standard to attract business so they decided that the only way to do this was to close down the Chinese schools (as well as the only Chinese university, Nanyang University, that was funded by the Chinese community) and convert them en masse to English medium schools. Chinese was taught as a second language and for brighter students, there is a subject called Higher Chinese where Chinese is studied to a higher standard. Some of the former chinese schools are also allowed to devote more curriculum time to Mandarin Chinese, but it is still a far cry from an actual Chinese medium school (which still exists in Malaysia).

There is a lot of bitterness felt by that generation as people with Chinese school qualifications and Chinese university qualifications felt sidelined. They also struggled to adapt to this new system. Imagine if you were in a UK school and they suddenly decided to teach maths and science in French and called you stupid if you failed to comprehend. That was how it felt like for them. But it meant the hegemony of people from English medium schools persisted. The vast majority of wealthy people from the professions from earlier generations are English educated and they are able to pass down that advantage to their children. There are some wealthy Chinese businessmen (who were Chinese educated) where this does not apply, but from what I observe, most 'old money' people in Singapore are English educated.