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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Tradespeople who insist on cash

118 replies

Oestrogelsmuggler · 13/07/2022 10:41

I am trying to get a wood burner installed. I have been given a price by a local company, but was told it'd have to be in cash, or else I'd need to pay an extra 20%, even for a bank transfer.

This annoys me. It looks to me like an obvious tax dodge, for starters. Yet this seems standard among tradespeople these days. I find it offensive when the rest of us dutifully pay our tax.

It's also inconvenient. I resent having to get thousands of pounds out in cash. I can't get it easily in one visit to a cashpoint.

It's made me want to not give him the business - but unfortunately he's the only one who bothered to visit my house and give me a reasonable quote.

Am I being unreasonable?

OP posts:
WeAreBob · 13/07/2022 15:02

If your problem is tax dodging then go with his second option. Pay by bank transfer and pay the extra 20% he has to charge for the VAT.

You want it done properly and officially and you want him to declare the income so you need to pay the VAT.

What's the problem? You've been given the option so just pay it.

ginghamstarfish · 13/07/2022 15:07

It's not just about VAT, that is just passed on by the tradesman when charged to customer. He's clearly wanting to avoid paying tax on his earnings - no doubt declares some earnings but yes it's a tax dodge, and both immoral and illegal. Most of us don't have the luxury of choosing whether to declare our income. CHeating bastard.

ItsSnowJokes · 13/07/2022 15:07

I really don't see the issue. Just pay by bank transfer if you want it to be above board. I often pay cash. Its not up to me what he does with his finances. He gives x price for cash or y for bank transfer. Make your choice!

Mousemat25 · 13/07/2022 15:08

WeAreBob · 13/07/2022 15:02

If your problem is tax dodging then go with his second option. Pay by bank transfer and pay the extra 20% he has to charge for the VAT.

You want it done properly and officially and you want him to declare the income so you need to pay the VAT.

What's the problem? You've been given the option so just pay it.

Do not do this! Even if you pay the VAT and he pays it to HMRC think of all of the other people that opt to help him evade tax. you are dealing with a blatant criminal here! Don’t touch him with a barge pole and call HMRC.

ArcticSkewer · 13/07/2022 15:10

As if ...
Op is clearly going to choose the cash option but thinks whinging on here will balance out her lack of ethics.
Op has the choice - pay more and 'do the right thing' or 'pay less and be complicit'. There isn't option C - pay less but whine about tax evasion.

Badbadbunny · 13/07/2022 15:10

Hrpuffnstuff1 · 13/07/2022 14:59

He as a trader or the business will not pay 30-40% tax fgs.
It doesn't work like that.😂

TAX IS PAID ON PROFITS.🤓
I'm sorry to shout but my goodness, people are fiscally inept.

Err, I'm an accountant and have been doing small business accounts/tax returns for over 30 years! It's EXACTLY how it works. Most will continue to put the expenses through the books, so the cash IS straight off the profits as they're not just failing to declare the income, they're continuing to claim the associated expenses.

I've been involved in dozens, if not hundreds of tax enquiries where this is exactly the scenario. It's hard to believe that so many are so blatant to do it, as common sense would say you're more likely to be caught, but lots of traders buy on trade accounts so monthly statements show all their purchases, so not easy to hide anyway.

Obviously, some make cash payments to casual staff (thus also evading employers NIC, etc), or to other "cash" traders especially skip hire, scaffolders, etc., so in those cases, yes, you'd be right that it's only the profit being evaded by the trader in question, but the cash paid to their workers/subbies etc is also being used for tax evasion, which just multiplies the amount of income tax, NIC and VAT evaded over several different traders.

Having said that, some traders are a lot more cunning, and have, say, different trade accounts with different suppliers, so buy goods for "declared" jobs from one supplier with costs put through their books, and goods bought for "cash" jobs from a different supplier who they pay in cash and where the invoices don't go through the books. Of course, when the cunning ones get caught out, their punishment (i.e. tax penalties) are higher because they can't claim innocence or accidental poor book-keeping, and they face the highest tier of penalties for deliberate and concealed tax evasion.

The black economy, which includes this kind of thing is the largest component of the official UK tax gap - far higher than tax avoidance by global firms, millionaires etc, simply due to the numbers game, i.e. huge numbers of "normal" people evading a few thousands of pounds against a very small number of "big" people/firms evading millions.

2022babyhope · 13/07/2022 15:11

The drama 😅 it's common - not just amongst tradesmen - that you get a cheaper cash price.

Either give them cash for the discount, pay the VAT price or find someone else!

JudgeRindersMinder · 13/07/2022 15:14

ArcticSkewer · 13/07/2022 15:10

As if ...
Op is clearly going to choose the cash option but thinks whinging on here will balance out her lack of ethics.
Op has the choice - pay more and 'do the right thing' or 'pay less and be complicit'. There isn't option C - pay less but whine about tax evasion.

Precisely this. I’m happy to pay cash, as others have said a lot of guys pay their workers in cash. What they do with the cash is between them and their accountant.

abblie · 13/07/2022 15:23

My partner accepts cash only NOT because of trying to void the tax man BUT because customers on quite a few occasions never sent the money or forgot or banking app was down etc etc and he had to chase payments days and weeks after completing a job.

TarasHarp55 · 13/07/2022 15:25

Hoppybunny · 13/07/2022 10:54

This is why we need to go cashless.

There's so many more reasons why we shouldn't.

Hrpuffnstuff1 · 13/07/2022 15:29

Badbadbunny · 13/07/2022 15:10

Err, I'm an accountant and have been doing small business accounts/tax returns for over 30 years! It's EXACTLY how it works. Most will continue to put the expenses through the books, so the cash IS straight off the profits as they're not just failing to declare the income, they're continuing to claim the associated expenses.

I've been involved in dozens, if not hundreds of tax enquiries where this is exactly the scenario. It's hard to believe that so many are so blatant to do it, as common sense would say you're more likely to be caught, but lots of traders buy on trade accounts so monthly statements show all their purchases, so not easy to hide anyway.

Obviously, some make cash payments to casual staff (thus also evading employers NIC, etc), or to other "cash" traders especially skip hire, scaffolders, etc., so in those cases, yes, you'd be right that it's only the profit being evaded by the trader in question, but the cash paid to their workers/subbies etc is also being used for tax evasion, which just multiplies the amount of income tax, NIC and VAT evaded over several different traders.

Having said that, some traders are a lot more cunning, and have, say, different trade accounts with different suppliers, so buy goods for "declared" jobs from one supplier with costs put through their books, and goods bought for "cash" jobs from a different supplier who they pay in cash and where the invoices don't go through the books. Of course, when the cunning ones get caught out, their punishment (i.e. tax penalties) are higher because they can't claim innocence or accidental poor book-keeping, and they face the highest tier of penalties for deliberate and concealed tax evasion.

The black economy, which includes this kind of thing is the largest component of the official UK tax gap - far higher than tax avoidance by global firms, millionaires etc, simply due to the numbers game, i.e. huge numbers of "normal" people evading a few thousands of pounds against a very small number of "big" people/firms evading millions.

But where does the 30%-40% tax come from?

The black economy paragraph is just twaddle.

burnoutbabe · 13/07/2022 15:40

if you are self employed as say a painter - you earn £50k, then you pay the 40% tax on the amount over 50k and 20% on the rest - very similar to you working for a company as an employee. (and plus NI as well)

yes its on "profits" but that just means you can take off your costs of say paint etc. Not deduct your OWN wages.

(different if the tradesman has his own company.

Blondeshavemorefun · 13/07/2022 16:05

He didn’t insist on cash. He offered you a lower price for cash

he also gave you the option of bank transfer costing you more as would go via books

and fwiw dh often gets cash but he still banks it as needs the money into the the bills

Oestrogelsmuggler · 13/07/2022 16:17

ArcticSkewer · 13/07/2022 14:58

He is giving you a morality test....

Will you ...
A pay cash in hand and save 20%
or...
B pay VAT at 20%

So, op, which are you choosing?

Yes, I think this is the thing that surprised me - that it's presented as an option to avoid tax. I asked for an itemised estimate, too, and all I got was a screen shot of my own attempt to summarise what I thought I was paying for.

I'm guessing the hive mind of Mumsnet would assume he's a cowboy and should be avoided? I got his details from Checkatrade, so assumed he'd be kosher.

Frustratingly, from a number of initial enquiries that I made, this is the only person in the trade who has actually come to my house to see the job. The rest of them seem content to go off photos alone. They don't know anything about the height of the chimney or other useful contextual factors.

I'm starting to go off the whole idea.

OP posts:
ThreeLittleDots · 13/07/2022 16:40

Yup. Sounds like a cowboy. At the least you'll have a written quote. Search the Hetas register for your nearest installers:

www.hetas.co.uk/consumer/services/installers/

LondonWolf · 13/07/2022 16:43

jimmyhill · 13/07/2022 13:36

Pay in cash then report him to HMRC. After the work is complete obviously.

Judge this thought process far more than the tradesman himself tbh.

ThreeLittleDots · 13/07/2022 16:44

Don't cut corners. Carbon monoxide poisoning is real!

Loics · 13/07/2022 17:51

All the people chomping at the bit to get him reported to HMRC, as if he won't be covering his back somehow. 😂 Some spiteful folk around.

VappyNalley · 13/07/2022 17:54

I would never assume anyone is any good, but if they come recommended from people you trust, and come across as reasonably professional including putting detailed quotes in writing, then you're probably OK.

No-one is squeaky clean, but if you don't care about whether businesses pay tax you can't claim to care about NHS waiting lists or rotten roads.

I would be put off by the lack of proper quote more than anything. Never say never, but I'll lean toward paying the 20% extra or simply not having it done. I would have no qualms about grassing someone for tax evasion or benefits fraud (unless it was relatively trivial and they were really hard up).

VappyNalley · 13/07/2022 17:55

Loics · 13/07/2022 17:51

All the people chomping at the bit to get him reported to HMRC, as if he won't be covering his back somehow. 😂 Some spiteful folk around.

Not sure what is spiteful about doing my bit to try to ensure single mums get benefits sufficient to live on.

IcedOatLatte · 13/07/2022 18:16

Loics · 13/07/2022 17:51

All the people chomping at the bit to get him reported to HMRC, as if he won't be covering his back somehow. 😂 Some spiteful folk around.

What do you mean by covering his back, he's said it's cheaper for cash, all HMRC would need to do is see if the sale to the OP has been included in his sales for the year. If it's not there and she has the proof that she paid cash there's no way he can cover it up

Not saying that any investigation would happen but if it did he find it hard to have a plausible excuse.

Weird that you think that reporting a crime is somehow spiteful, do you apply that to all crimes, what about rape or assault for example

alphapie · 13/07/2022 18:25

YANBU. He is tax dodging, plain and simple

When getting costs for work at home if we ever had people try this (and many did the whole 20% discount if paying in cash malarkey) I refused to work with them and reported to HMRC, each and every time

I only use tradespeople who invoice and accept bank transfer

minidancer · 13/07/2022 18:30

My oh is a tradesman and often loses out on jobs as he charges VAT and won't do cash jobs ..... it's a nightmare

minidancer · 13/07/2022 18:33

Customers can also be reported for fraud if they are involved in cash jobs that aren't declared but people don't seem to realise this and would rather get away with paying a bit less even if they know the tradesperson isn't declaring their job

Mamamia7962 · 13/07/2022 18:36

I always pay cash if that's what people ask for, although I haven't had a tradesman who's asked for thousands in cash, they have usually been bank transfer.

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