Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To say these men shouldn't be allowed to keep this child.

500 replies

GrabbyGabby · 11/07/2022 13:34

2 men hire a surrogate to have a child for them via IVF. They wanted 2 boys (had names and gmail accounts for them already🙄).
The IVF clinic implanted a female foetus, and now they are suing the clinic.

I don't think they should be allowed to raise a child they clearly don't want.

www.cbsnews.com/losangeles/news/same-sex-couple-sues-fertility-clinic-over-alleged-wrong-sex-embryo-implant/

YABU they will be fine parents and their daughter will in no way be scarred for life

YANBU babies arent commodities. They should never be bought and sold, and being female is not a defect

OP posts:
NippyWoowoo · 11/07/2022 16:42

FunnyTalks · 11/07/2022 16:25

Gender reveal are bullshit (imo)
So is gender stereotyping
Gender is the means by which the patriarchy oppresses women

Surrogacy makes a commodity of women's bodies and of babies. I don't think anyone should be allowed to do it, although I recognise a world of difference between truly altruistic friend of the intended parents vs buying an unknown woman.

I do not relate to the apparently 1000s (?) of women who express disappointment with their baby's sex. It tells me they believe in gender stereotypes.

Being a person (male or female) who thinks it is OK to buy a woman's body and buy a baby, intentionally subjecting that infant to early loss, AND who believes in gender stereotypes AND expressly favours boys in this misogynist world is quite clearly worse.

Show quote history

I do not relate to the apparently 1000s (?) of women who express disappointment with their baby's sex. It tells me they believe in gender stereotypes.

That isn’t really addressing my comment. Not relating to it, or judging it doesn’t really matter. Would you say it?

Like how people are coming here saying that they don’t think these men should be allowed to parent these children. Would you say that to a woman who says she’s upset that she’s having a girl when she wanted a boy? That’s what this thread is about, and getting to the bottom of why OP and some others are saying that they are unfit to parent.

FrippEnos · 11/07/2022 16:45

A couple of months back a lesbian couple were suing an IVF clinic for the same thing (except the child was male).

The woman that was pregnant stated that she felt is was like she was raped and didn't want the boy.

Do you think the same way about them?

Yellowflowers4 · 11/07/2022 16:46

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

GromblesofGrimbledon · 11/07/2022 16:47

alphapie · 11/07/2022 16:22

@Hoppinggreen the key is people are admitting my omission.

Posters have been asked, some responded saying they'd think the same with a straight couple, others have ignored that question and posted since. No one is going to outright say 'no, I wouldn't think the same if it was a straight couple' as they'd most likely not want to out themselves as homophobes.

Homophobia isn't just posting hate online, it's also letting that prejudice seep out in cases like this, some don't even know they're biased until asked and are forced to confront their opinions and why they differ based on the couple

Surrogacy is abhorrent no matter what your sexual orientation. Whether you're in a homosexual or heterosexual relationship and can't conceive naturally, then either remain childless or foster/adopt. The fact that you can't conceive naturally is just your lot in life, it doesn't make it morally right to buy a human life.

The fact that they wanted to select the sex in the first place and are now suing because they have a girl instead of a boy is just the shitty icing on the rancid cake.

OchonAgusOchonOh · 11/07/2022 16:48

alphapie · 11/07/2022 16:19

@OchonAgusOchonOh I never said most poster, I said some posters, and those posters are yet to confirm or deny whether they think straight parents should have their children removed, breaking their attachments, taken into care and raised by strangers because they suffered gender disappointment.

The issue in this case is the financial element, if sex selection was included in their package costs I'd agree with you somewhat, but they paid extra, the clinic refused to refund and their statement on the matter is highly odd and very unprofessional. The clinic has forced their hand to make this public. Costs of sex selection in the US are significant, if it was a few grand I doubt these parents would be overly bothered but it's not. As is the cost of raising 3 children instead of the 2 planned.

People are letting the emotional element of surrogacy override their brains in this case.

There are so many comparable examples where I bet the comments would be different.

AIBU, I had IVF and asked for 1 embryo to be implanted, the clinic put 3 in and I now have triplets to raise, AIBU to sue. Those extra children would know they weren't wanted, but I can't imagine many on here saying that family isn't justified for claiming against the clinic.

AIBU I paid for genetic screening against DS, the clinic charged 25k for this but didn't do it properly, my son was born with DS, AIBU to sue for the 25k back and costs associated with raising a disabled child? Again, hardly think many would be saying YABU in that case either, again despite the child knowing they weren't 'wanted'

My issue is mainly with the surrogacy, rather than the court case, as I believe it is exploitative.

Wrt the suing, I think they are legally entitled to sue, as you would be also, in the (hopefully hypothetical) cases you outlined. However, I think creating a situation where your child(ren) may potentially come across the evidence that they weren't wanted is unwise. I suspect if you were to sue in many countries, it could be done anonymously. That would be a different scenario then.

GromblesofGrimbledon · 11/07/2022 16:50

SunThroughTheCloudsAt6am · 11/07/2022 16:34

There is a clear difference between hoping for a boy, but having a girl, and paying extra to ensure that the baby you buy is a boy, and then suing when the baby is a girl. If a hetero couple went for sex selection then sued for having the 'wrong' sex baby I would also be disgusted by their behaviour (both the sex selection as the suing).

There is cultural baggage around the desirability of boys vs girls and enabling it can only continue that. No good comes of treating babies as customisable dolls.

Wonderful post.

thebear1 · 11/07/2022 16:51

Putting aside the moral and ethics issues of commercial surrogacy they paid for a service they didn't get. They are right to sue.

We don't know if they are good parents or not, having a gender preference is common but most people don't thankfully get to choose. They did and it doesn't automatically mean they don't love their child.

Somethingneedstochange · 11/07/2022 16:51

I was replying to someone further back who said gay men shouldn't be allowed to use surrogate's. It's called homophobia always someone that has to jump on with they're sarcastic comments and bully people.

SunThroughTheCloudsAt6am · 11/07/2022 16:52

A couple of months back a lesbian couple were suing an IVF clinic for the same thing (except the child was male).

Yes. And I worry for the little boy.

Treating babies as customisable commodities objects you can buy is wrong.

TheVolturi · 11/07/2022 16:53

ComDummings · 11/07/2022 14:05

Nobody should be able to buy a baby, surrogacy should be banned.

This is a bit hysterical surely?
It's not buying a baby if you have a fertilised egg of your own implanted into a willing woman's uterus?
It's not as though Tracy down the chip shop is pregnant but doesn't want the baby, and you offer to buy it.

NippyWoowoo · 11/07/2022 16:53

Conflictedunicorn · 11/07/2022 16:19

But his do they know it was a female embryo? Isn’t sex assigned at birth???

What is the point of this sarcastic comment? Many people believe that sex and gender are different, not just the women on the FRW boards

Gingerkittykat · 11/07/2022 16:54

Astrabees · 11/07/2022 14:02

Surrogacy is just a way to help those who cannot have children in the natural way become parents. I'm saddened by what seem to be homophobic comments on here. If you have natural fertility it doesn't matter if you are a drug user, abuser or general piece of shit you can have your own child and unless you mess up in a pretty spectacular way you will be let in peace. There are massive hurdles to get through to be able to use a surrogate, and the women who provide this service deserve to be very positively regarded for what they do.

By massive hurdles do you mean having $300 000 to rent a womb?

I am also against commercial surrogacy for straight parents.

It looks like they are suing for the costs of bringing up 3 children which looks like they are planning to have another boy to have what they originally desired.

I really hope they value their daughter and treat her well.

NightmareSlashDelightful · 11/07/2022 16:55

GromblesofGrimbledon · 11/07/2022 16:47

Surrogacy is abhorrent no matter what your sexual orientation. Whether you're in a homosexual or heterosexual relationship and can't conceive naturally, then either remain childless or foster/adopt. The fact that you can't conceive naturally is just your lot in life, it doesn't make it morally right to buy a human life.

The fact that they wanted to select the sex in the first place and are now suing because they have a girl instead of a boy is just the shitty icing on the rancid cake.

Show quote history

The fact that you can't conceive naturally is just your lot in life

Does your view on this extend to fertility treatment and IVF? If not, where is the line?

NottheLot · 11/07/2022 16:56

alphapie · 11/07/2022 15:02

@MenopausalMe they paid a lot for sex selection, they are fully entitled to claim that back.

If you paid upwards of $25k for a service and the provider of said service just didn't do it, would you honestly be fine with that?

No one with any sense would be fine with that.

This baby is their child, at least one of theirs biologically and the other through adoption.

Only absolute idiots think placing a child in care is better than being with a loving family who simply want a company to right a wrong

Arguably, Only a complete idiot would fail to see that it is utterly morally bankrupt and utterly reprehensible to treat a child as a commodity that you buy so that you are entitled to sue when the commodity is not exactly as you specified in the contract.

ErrolTheDragon · 11/07/2022 16:57

My understanding in the UK is that you could definitely sue to recoup the money spent.

In the U.K., you can't do sex selection for anything other than specific medical reasons.

alphapie · 11/07/2022 16:58

ErrolTheDragon · 11/07/2022 16:57

My understanding in the UK is that you could definitely sue to recoup the money spent.

In the U.K., you can't do sex selection for anything other than specific medical reasons.

But in those cases if the selection had been done incorrectly you can still go for costs.

NottheLot · 11/07/2022 17:00

thebear1 · 11/07/2022 16:51

Putting aside the moral and ethics issues of commercial surrogacy they paid for a service they didn't get. They are right to sue.

We don't know if they are good parents or not, having a gender preference is common but most people don't thankfully get to choose. They did and it doesn't automatically mean they don't love their child.

Well being as they are moving straight into trying to have the ‘right’ child and resent the costs of raising this additional child that they didn’t mean to purchase, so want the clinic to pay for the costs of raising this out-of-contract child, it’s not looking good for the unconditional love, is it?

Original poster
GrabbyGabby · 11/07/2022 17:00

These guys have shown clearly they will not put the needs of the child first.

Putting aside the fact they bought a baby and removed her from her mother within hours of birth. They had a choice tk make.
Choice A, sue, potentially get financial compensation for their 'defective' purchase, but knowing that one day this child would read how her parents never wanted a female child, only her brothers.

Choice B, keep schtum and carry on, the child never needing to know the truth.

They chose B. I cant imagine that the compensation will cover the costs of the years of therapy this child will need to get over that.

OP posts:
alphapie · 11/07/2022 17:02

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Well we finally have an open homophobe.

MindatWork · 11/07/2022 17:02

Give it a rest @alphapie, this thread was only started this afternoon and not everyone spends their whole life glued to mumsnet, jumping at the chance to respond to your ‘question’. Why don’t you tag the specific posters you’re waiting for a response from and then we can all move in without you sounding like a broken record 🙄

In case you’re keeping score, I think commercial surrogacy is wrong.regardless of the sex or sexual orientation of the couple. But that’s just my opinion - I had ivf to conceive my daughter and the concept of choosing which sex embryo you want to be implanted is absolutely baffling to me.

MindatWork · 11/07/2022 17:02

I’ve reported @Yellowflowers4 post 😲

alphapie · 11/07/2022 17:03

GrabbyGabby · 11/07/2022 17:00

These guys have shown clearly they will not put the needs of the child first.

Putting aside the fact they bought a baby and removed her from her mother within hours of birth. They had a choice tk make.
Choice A, sue, potentially get financial compensation for their 'defective' purchase, but knowing that one day this child would read how her parents never wanted a female child, only her brothers.

Choice B, keep schtum and carry on, the child never needing to know the truth.

They chose B. I cant imagine that the compensation will cover the costs of the years of therapy this child will need to get over that.

Would you think the same if the clinic was paid for genetic testing for a disability, and they didn't do it properly and the couple was suing in that case?

Because the child would know they weren't wanted and born 'wrong'

NippyWoowoo · 11/07/2022 17:03

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

And here we have it.

I've read this view before on different surrogacy posts here but knew I'd get the wide-eyed 'where have you seen such comments?'

So here is a quote for you. That it is 2 gay men having this child is the issue.

C8H10N4O2 · 11/07/2022 17:04

MrsTerryPratchett · 11/07/2022 15:34

I do think they are monsters for paying to rent a woman's body in the first place. And I don't think misogynists make great fathers, especially not to girls.

This. And pretending it's homophobic to object is a very neat way of saying, "shut up women". I mean they are very very clearly sexist and that doesn't appear to be an issue. Discriminating against a protected characteristic before birth FFS.

Absolutely.

However I also thought sex selection for cosmetic reasons rather than eg heritable disease or via abortion was illegal in the US as it is in most countries which claim to be civilised or support women's rights.

I'm shocked if its legal frankly - babies are not designer accessories.

SunThroughTheCloudsAt6am · 11/07/2022 17:04

It's not buying a baby if you have a fertilised egg of your own implanted into a willing woman's uterus?

It's not as though Tracy down the chip shop is pregnant but doesn't want the baby, and you offer to buy it.

One is a situation of an existing baby which will need a home once it is born

One is intentionally putting a woman at real risk of serious injury to intentionally create a baby for you to buy.

Are you seriously saying that in the first case buying an existing baby is bad, but in the second, commissioning a baby is fine? Because they're both buying a baby, but in the second case, you're also planning to pay a woman to put her life at risk to get that baby.