Private Schools being able to hold charitable status

[IdiotCreatures]

I went and looked at a building associated with a local independent school yesterday, as it's always piqued my curiosity.
The school is run by the Woodard Corporation. I looked at their books on company house yesterday.
The amount of money moving through them is ridiculous. If people want to pay for a private education, then surely the institutions should be taxed.
Apart from a small number of scholarships, the average person is not benefiting from these institutions.
In the case of Eton, as pointed out on another thread, these schools are probably leading to damage to society and definitely do not promote the idea of equality.

Completely agree and private education isn't doing the rest of us a favour by saving money. Where I am there is no secondary school in the whole postcode, thousands of kids a few miles out of the city centre because all the land is taken up educating a few hundred kids (mostly overseas children) People don't put their kids in school for the greater good but their own benefits. Charitable or not I think we should have a bit of honestly.

I'm calling the parents cunts, not the children. Until the kids do the same thing for their own kids, which they will. An unearned head start.

I can see that sEN shifts everything.

I'd be very impressed if that were the case. But in fact, they'll be working to fund the better lifestyle that their parents' selfishness has bought them. They're only accidentally paying towards universal benefits like pensions to which they will also be entitled. They're compelled to.

I looked at their books on company house yesterday. The amount of money moving through them is ridiculous.

Whatever my feelings on private schools this is a stupid comment. Have you seen how much money is moving through ‘actual’ charities?10’s, 100’s and billions of pounds.

Relentless cunts”
you got a mirror handy?'
We'll, do you have a defence handy? You don't like my vehemence, but you don't seem to have an argument against my point that private school parents are kidding themselves if they think they are not deeply anti-social and selfish.

I've said on previous threads that if these schools want to retain their charitable status, they should raise funds on high streets with collection boxes, or are they scared or ashamed of trying it.
@jcyclops how many charities receive most of their funds through collection boxes? Most of the big charities receive large amounts of government funding, and pay their executives handsomely.

It would be useful to weigh up the consequences of removing charity status, mainly that there need no longer be fee remission or bursaries at independents without charity status. I'm agnostic about this since I don't really know what the consequences are.

Independents are always shouting about the many pupils who get fee remission, however anecdotally many of these are said to be from sharp-elbowed middle class families, rather than the "deserving poor". Would this not increase the sharp-elbowed impact on state schools, where anecdotally "normal" families tend to be elbowed out of the "better" state schools?

The trouble is there don't seem to be any facts easily available about who would not have attended without charity status, and the wider consequences resulting from this. So airing perceived grievances becomes pointless because the lack of data or analysis means firstly nobody will take any notice, and if they do for political reasons, the consequences may be directly opposed to what campaigners say they want anyway. So I say, show us the data, and the likely outcomes. At least then we can have an adult conversation and judge if these outcomes are what we expect and whether they actually get delivered.

There are plenty of public services I dont use. Should I get the tax back?
Oh and childless people arent costing the education sector money either. How about giving them back some tax too?

Its simply not how the tax system works.

I'm childless.

I have no problem paying my taxes to educate children, as I get older I'm going to need more healthcare and I want there to be Drs and nurses and social workers and street sweepers and refuse collection.

I want all of those people to be educated.

State schools need more funding and less regulation.

Private schools with charitable status IMHO need to be transparent and they should do more than just benefit those already attending.

There was a TV show on a while ago where a private and a comp school did a sort of exchange trip, 2 weeks in each other's schools.

Some of the state pupils were then offered scholarships to attend the private school.

I don't know if the school was a charity but if they were using charitable funds to offer those scholarships then what good were they really doing? Those 2 or 3 children would get a top education, but that would leave the comp with fewer academic and well behaved children.

The money that was spent on the scholarships, and not all children took them, could have funded something that benefitted every pupil in the comp.

@WinterDeWinter but the parents are perfectly nice, hard working people who want the best for their kids. They happen to earn enough in their chosen career to afford fees, or have made other choices and sacrifices to afford it. Lots are farmers, or self employed tradespeople who have done well. We also don't live in the south and some made the choice to move away from there to free up cash from housing costs. Are we really calling parents doing the best for their kids cunts now? I know literally no-one in real life who would actually actively disadvantage their kid for a point of principle.
I don't think all indie schools are great and all state schools crap. There are plenty of amazing state schools but plenty aren't, or don't offer whats needed.
Until there is a viable plan to level up the state sector to something comparable, taxing the private sector and effectively killing off most of it would be a spectacular own goal for any government.

Winter my DC are not in private but I would move them,one of them in a flash if I could

Thankfully I was able to get one into a grammar school and she's ok now,the local comp although rated now outstanding left much to be desired.

The younger has some Sen and left to again an outstanding primary without my intervention I dread to think where we would be.
I dread to think.

We need more types of school not less, more variety not less.
The amount of DC at private school is actually very small compared to state.
Yet seemingly v successful.
Perhaps it's time to start modelling state on private if that's the success story you think it is.

Why drag everyone down?

My children were (through our choice) state educated and did very well indeed (Oxbridge and another specialist top uni, followed by jobs) so this isn't personal - no chips!
But several things always strike me on these threads

1. the number of posters who talk about 'sacrifice'. I'm not sure they know the meaning of the word. They're actually talking about 'choice'


2. the poster who always crops up implying that people who can't afford private school spend all their money on trainers and big TVs. I won't name names but scroll up and you'll find her. It's a horrible assertion imo.


3. the assumption that giving a child a subsidised place on a scholarship or small bursary is pure charity. It isn't; the school is getting something in return - it gets a talented musician or mathematician or athlete to boost its results. And deprives a local school of that result.


4. The assumption that people like me are ok because we used a mythical 'leafy comp'. No. We were living in an area and just used the local school (in our case it's just swerved special measures but to be fair my youngest left it 6 years ago).

Those are just small points and don't touch the whole inequality thing. It's way too big and gnarly to face this time in the morning!

@Summerwhereareyou that would be brilliant. Because the difference is funding. That’s all.

All state schools would benefit from the kind of motivated, wealthy parents who choose private schools sending their dc to state schools instead - because then they’d be invested in the state sector. They’d fight for it instead of just opting out. And we’d be able to improve things for all DC because if everyone had to use state schools, we wouldn’t end up in a position where it was acceptable for government to cut funding year on year so we’re in a situation now where in 3 years time we might just return to the same funding schools were getting in 2010. That’s appalling.

No one is doing the state sector a favour by choosing private education. Yes higher numbers in state schools would be an initial challenge but the state sector would be massively benefited in the longer term - which would be better for absolutely everyone.

The biggest in equality in our schools is not to do with private school.

It's well within state sector with DC like mine being let down?
My dd was lucky she had me
She shouldn't need me, what about the other DC who don't have a me?

How many illiterate people are in prison? How many with literacy issue's are in prison?

That's your inequality but that doesn't fit the cosy entrenched views does it.

Attack Sen ,get all over it, get it into pgce, train tas and pay them properly, get special tas specialised in Sen, get consultants in...

That's true leveling up.

@MyBrilliantFriend don't you think that's a bit insulting to the 93% of parents who currently send their kids to state schools though? Do they not care enough, make enough fuss? What's so amazing about the other 7 that's suddenly going to transform the entire edifice of state education?

My brilliant not at all.

I know parents on governor board, others who have lobbied, complained etc to the comp I removed dd from.
It's just got an outstanding but is known for arrogant SLT who don't listen to anyone.
Aside from the money to actually peruse legal action what on earth would other parents do?

This is a leafy wealthy area with many wealthy parents.

It's an absolute myth and doesn't play out at all.
Grammar and private school are in the mintory,plenty of rich people send their DC locally and make not one jot of difference.
This largely because state school don't see them as accountable at all to their clients.

The parents and children.

We see this time and time again on here,the sheer seething contempt of teachers against parents.

It's a strained relationship which I believe would be made far better with a more open transparent relationship and also more parent accountability and work with some parents who don't back up the school.
But the flip side is remember that parents and children are the clients!

@Yazo overseas pupils increase U.K. gdp.

@MyBrilliantFriend - a lot of things in schools take a long time to change. I don’t know what exactly the private school parents would do in a state school to improve things for everyone? Wouldn’t they just send their kid to tutoring? (I’m guessing this should be taxed too) They would buy houses near the best schools - so people would pushed to the lower rated schools.

I think you’ll find there are children on fully subsidised places or with a high percentage bursary.

@ChiselandBits not at all intended to insult anyone - I’m a motivated involved state school parent myself.

But if more people didn’t have the option of opting out of the state sector, it would improve. Just look at our current government - none of them have any experience or investment in the state sector. Which is why they’ve happily cut funding for state schools year on year and seem absolutely intent on waging a war against teachers. If they were looking at their local schools & knowing their dc would be going there, they’d be funding them better for a start.

what makes you think that’s how the Treasury works? They don’t make money in one place then direct that into another equivalent place. How do you think they got the money to pay for covid.

with this government’s track record on education any money coming from the method you describe would not go into education. It would simply mean the education system is burdened further, bigger class sizes. Most people couldn’t afford the increase in fees

@BiFoldChampion and those schools will be getting something in return for those children who they are subsidising - specialist talents and the resulting exam results. Let's not pretend this is pure charity. It is transactional.

I think a big issue is that the children of people who make decisions about the education of the majority of children in this country don't actually attend state schools. So the decision makers have no skin in the game and no real insight. That is a big structural problem and one that I'd argue makes for restricted funding and muddled thinking when it comes to managing our schools.

The biggest hurdle to overcome in the field of education, medicine, infrastructure, all of it is short term thinking. No government is prepared to get behind a programme that will take twenty years to bear fruit. Its all short term quick fixes that don't work but look good ready for the election every 5 years.

through your own bloody hard work, no doubt, and nothing to do with the class privilege you inherited

Yep, through my own hard graft, and DH's. Both brought up in the NW, on estates and went to state schools. Moved to and lived in London, lived and worked overseas for 17 years and saved like mad, came back here and put our DC in private school.

Where I lived overseas taught me some very important life lessons about how you should invest your time and effort in your DC's education and hobbies.

My eldest just sat 11 GCSE's and was predicted all 9's. I don't care if anyone thinks I am a c**t or selfish.

Hey Winter, what have you done to improve your life and your DC's? Have you put in as much graft as I have?