To give up on Grade 7 applications (civil service)

[savebuckbeak]

I've been an SEO in a policy role in the CS for about 2 years and have been applying for Grade 7 roles for a few months now both internally through EOIs and externally. Had 2 unsuccessful interviews and just feeling very dejected. I've got mentors I work through stuff with, get involved in a lot of corporate/strategy stuff, have refined my behaviours examples hundreds of times, gotten advice on them, prepared strengths answers and generally done A LOT of career building stuff. In interviews I talk about leadership, strategy, work programmes I've led and delivered through others, how I've challenged and negotiated and convinced stakeholders to do x y z. Literally don't know what to do going forward and any nuggets of advice about any of this very welcome.

appreciate this isn’t my thread but really appreciate all the responses here. Really good advice and it’s making me feel more positive

Ah, classic civil service "you need to be in XXX grade for 75 years before moving."

Sorry, I don't mean to be unkind, but it's just so common in the civil service and I'm not sure why. Many of my friends and colleagues have made the jump from HEO to Grade 7 within 3-4 years.

I work in policy and recently moved to a G7 role after 2.5 months yrs as SEO. I would second making a sideways move - I took a sponsorship role for 12 mths which gave me massive responsibility for my grade, I worked with ministers and N10. This made the transition to G7 much easier.

I think you need to work out your gaps e.g leadership, working with ministers etc, and work out ways to get this experience. I would also advise in an interview to make sure you really understand the departments wider strategic objectives and how they fit in with this gov'e policies eg levelling up. There is def a risk that if you focus too much on the star examples, and not on the job/department, you can come across as just interested in promotion and not the actual job.

Hope that helps!

@horsesforcoursess This is helpful, thanks! But in behaviours-based interviews, how would you recommend I demonstrate my interest in the department?

I do already work quite closely with ministers in my current role, and line manage 2 people, but will definitely try to develop more in these areas.

I got my G7 in 2018 after a year of undertaking a temporary promotion on a specific project, and many applications during that period. I'm now trying for my G6 and it's tricky. The inconsistency on how Success Profiles is used doesn't help - some are looking for experience answers and some for competencies, and I find it hard to know how to draft the application.

I have had some excellent advice from my mentor, about how to think strategy when drafting. Tying in strategic aims to projects and showing how I've led a team and negotiated, but at a step removed from the nitty gritty. So not about what you have done in a process but what the outcome was and the issues that you encounter. I have also taken part in a reverse mentoring scheme which has helped me to reflect on my leadership practice and given me more examples. It's a hard slog though and SEO to G7 is a massive change from doing the job to leading the team and handling ministers and external stakeholders at that level.

So I think you can link your answers back to the strategic objectives of your current dep. Also maybe think of some questions that you can ask at the end of the interview eg 'what do you think are the biggest challenges for this dep in the next 2 years?' or 'how is the cost of living crisis affecting the work this dep does'.

I would also ask someone you trust/respect to comment on what they think your skills gaps are. I found that really useful.

But keep positive and remember that CS applications are a numbers game. Also check if there is a lead behaviour and if so really focus in on it - when choosing between similar candidates it often comes down to that.

Ooh and also do as much sifting and interviewing as poss - this makes it so much easier to visualise what a good/bad answer looks like.

@savebuckbeak No one is saying you need to do 75 years at whatever grade before being promoted. My own experience of doing 12 years at SEO was excessive - although I should point out that it was during the 2000s when we didn't have post specific G7 promotions, we had formal G7 promotion boards once every few years and if you didn't get through, tough, you had to wait eg 3 years until the next one.

I'm not suggesting that we return to that, there is a happy medium here, whereby a few different posts at eg SEO, spread over a few years, enables individuals to really immerse themselves in what they're doing, become skilled and develop robust examples for interview.

I agree with others that you may be coming across as desperate for the grade rather than the actual role. I'd also have reservations with someone at SEO only doing 2 years. I assume you were an HEO before that? That's quite a big jump and in my G7s I don't want to hold their hands so I'd be reluctant to risk a fairly inexperienced SEO in my team.

Sorry - I know that's probably not what you want to hear. I had 7 years at SEO and although I think I could have done the job earlier, I'm glad I waited and was sure of myself.

OP you have had some good advice on this thread but have been dismissive of anyone suggesting you need longer in your role and possibly a second role as an SEO.

No one is suggesting you need a decade before getting a G7 but what we are saying is you need more experience. For example managing 2 staff, whoop de do, I have known G7s manage an office I.e. c300 staff and SEOs manage 50+ staff. Yes this is managing a hierarchical structure rather than direct reports but without experience of managing staff at EO, HEO and SEO level you just will not have the depth of experience.

Look for a level transfer to an operational role with a significant team to manage. DWP, HMRC often have these roles.

I should mention that I have coached and developed staff for over 30 years, including those on the graduate schemes. I have happily seen some of those rise to higher grades than me (personal choice).

I have also been involved in recruitment and promotion panels for 25 years. I understand how lack of experience can be identified at interview.

I have also had to support and work for managers who have been over promoted and their lack of experience makes its hard work for everyone. Usually they are entitled and move on quickly until they get caught out and are sidelined.

Thanks all. Not meaning to be dismissive at all. I guess I am just inclined to think that, as I am getting Grade 7 interviews, it's perhaps interview technique etc that I should focus on, as opposed to moving sideways. I will consider that too of course.

Maybe you should stop grade chasing tbh. You're getting the interviews because you can play the blind application game but it's obvs not working when f2f.

If I had a 2 year SEO in front of me at interview for a G7 role I'd expect a lack of depth in your experience.

@Unhomme Lol @ "grade chasing". In other sectors this might be called "being ambitious" or "career development".

It might be, but you're the SEO looking to convince recruiters you're not. I've interviewed hundreds of people over the last years and it's very clear when someone is genuine or not.

@Unhomme Can I ask what you mean by "genuine"? I am genuine. I'm interested in the roles I apply for, and I have the skills, experience and drive to do well in them. Your approach to recruitment sounds a little odd, as if you're looking to catch people out. Why would someone be not genuine? Or do you take any indication of interest in the grade, or rising through the ranks, as not being genuine?

I've gone from EO to Grade 6 in 10 years. I've taken two (albeit short) mat leaves and also done a sideways move out as an SEO equivalent to get wider experience before moving back in as a G7.

My advice would be stop focusing on getting a promotion. Focus on being the strongest SEO. The G7 post will come. Definitely focus on the role and not the grade. What department are you in?

Not at all, but G7 is much more than being 'interested in the role'. It's a significant change in approach and outlook, with much more focus on what you can bring to the wider team and organisation. Looking up and across rather than across and down. Some people might have extensive experience or skills that fit a particular 7 role, but I'd look at their talent grid placement to understand if they teally are a star across all 7 roles or in a narrow area of responsibility. And do they have that breadth of experience to be an asset.

Someone with 2 year's experience in one SEO role is, quite frankly, going to find it difficult to convince me that you do really have the ability to deliver.

And, having made the mistake of recruiting ambition over ability in the past (and seeing quite a lot of overpromotion and the issues it can cause), I am a lot more discerning now about getting the right person into my teams.

Not to derail OPs thread but do you have any advice around making the leap from SEO to G7 and what you would want to see at interview?

from my most recent interviews feedback has been good but there is a better candidate however what I have found a barrier is that with Success Profiles I have never been asked about my career
history or what I could bring to roles.

I really disagree with a lot of the recent posts on this thread. I was an SEO for 8 months before my promotion. I don’t need (nor would I get) my ‘hands held’ now, and I have precisely the opposite of an inability to deliver (and am very high on the talent grid as a newish grade 7, work closely with and get great feedback from DGs etc). I agree with you OP that it’s probably about interview technique as I mentioned before.

You could actually be my friend writing this, i have reviewed with her all the standards and it just seems impossible. I also have another friend whose husband had a very similar situation who would be put in the role temporarily after a leaver for quite a few months then fail to get the position and then be put back in the role after they left. After 3 years of doing this he has finally got the position. Don't give up.....and if it is you, I will see you later ;)

You are an exception to the rule. There are always have been and always will be high flyers who progress quickly. However, they are the top 1%.

The posters on this thread with decades of experience know that there are a wide range of people seeking promotion. Some have breadth and depth of experience and have made life choices not to apply until now, some have followed the route of applying when they personally are ready (2 -10+Years), some are not quite ready but have potential and are chancing their luck, some need further development but have the potential in a year or three, and some are delusional about their abilities.

i have know people in the later category to get the job because they go for a department where they are unknown and have the gift of the gab and it’s shocking when they start work and everyone slowly starts to realise they hoodwinked the interview panel.

Yes, there is interview technique which your line manager and colleagues can coach you on, but technique alone should not result in a successful outcome. Transferrable skills, depth and breadth of experience also matter. Plus some jobs are more popular than others and so the standard of candidates can be much higher and impact on your chances.

I’m a G7 and before getting a substantive promotion, I was on temporary promotion. I found that really gave me the opportunity to demonstrate that I could work at G7 level, and gave me some properly deep examples for applications.

Obviously the application has a limited word count, so it may be that on paper your examples look ok, but at interview there isn’t enough extra oomph to build them into a full G7 level example. As an interviewer, I always want more at the interview as you have time to expand and get into details.

in my experience, it is practical stretching work/projects that make the difference, not training courses. So I’d encourage you to keep an eye out for EOIs, temporary opportunities, or extra bits of work that you can put yourself forward for.

Sometimes it's a case of your face just doesn't fit. Just keep going

@Seemslikeaniceday Sorry, but did you just make that 1% figure up?! I was an HEO for 2 years, and been an SEO for 2.5 years. Aiming for Grade 7 promotion, in my experience from seeing my peers and those around me, is actually incredibly normal and expected at this stage. It's akin to the fast stream, where you progress to Grade 7 after four years of being on a fast stream grade (which is basically HEO/SEO). I really don't understand why there's such a bleak view in segments of the civil service re promotion prospects, or that Grade 7 is this holy grail type thing. It's just mid-management, for God's sake, and as SEOs many of us are essentially doing Grade 7 roles anyway, or at least part of them.

I think a lot of it is also about the departments involved and the geography etc.

in some departments it’s rare for roles to open up as people rarely move on, whereas in some others there is a high turnover.

if it’s out in the regions then G7 level work can be viewed differently to in the cities. It can be rare to get an opportunity. This seems to be changing more now with remote working being more acceptable.

im generalising of course but going on what I’ve seen over the years.