To wonder if rudeness/lack of basic manners is now a middle/upper class norm?

[Rumineverything]

Hi,

So firstly, I understand that anyone from anywhere can be rude and actually I don't like grouping people into a catagory. ..However, a good friend of mine has fairly recently moved to a very posh, Conservative, middle class area and I've noticed she has become more abrupt and to me, just rude over the past couple of years. Her dc are lovely and I'm very close to them, but they're also now quite rude and dare I say, entitled. Not intentionally so, but hardly any please and thank yous, lots of "I want"s instead of "can I have?". Thing is, all the families I've interacted with in this area are all the same. It's just the norm, but I find it really irritating. There's always this cold sense of smugness and self satisfaction around.

I'm finding my irritation harder to hide in my face recently. I can feel it. I still love my friend and I know deep down she is the same person really, but on the surface she seems to have changed so much, so quickly.

Does anyone understand where I'm coming from?

Certainly not all but on the whole, the middle class baby boomers and their entitled brats are without doubt the rudest people that ever walked the earth.
I used to live and work amongst then and had the misfortune to go on a Maiden voyage of a cruise ship with them.

I have definitely noticed this. Especially the entitlement of the middle classes - I have often been extremely polite and stepped off the pavement for a family or held a door open for someone or let someone go in front of me in a queue, and I have not got an acknowledgment that I’m a living human being, let alone a thank you! Since I am quite petty however I find calling them out with a loud ‘You’re welcome’ gives them a sense of embarrassment - especially because I have a a real middle class vibe and voice myself.

Perhaps you’ve changed towards her now that she’s living in type of place you’ve described and she can’t be bothered to put up with you anymore. Not that you would have had to say anything. She can probably just feel and sense your disapproval.

Do you also blow your own trumpet in the school band.

I find young people actually very polite. The rudest people are men in their late 50s and 60s, followed by women in the same age groups. And just really fucking grumpy and boring. People older than that are fine and people younger than that are not as likely to be rude. Those are the people who shove you in the queue with their trollies in Waitrose and reverse straight out of the spaces without looking in the car park, or are all "Do you know who I am?" with waiters and so on.

I am polite to Alexa if I ever have to speak to her

We always say please and thank you to Alexa 🤣 I think she appreciates it.

“Now”?

Quite a lot of middle class people have been like that for a while. It’s what makes them feel like they’re better than others.

This

You only have to look on here at the rudeness and spiteful posts

I don't think this isa class thing but a people thing in general- imagine if I headed a post - tons of working class rude people in this area.

Rich people have a role model (or is it role models) who has blonde hair and lies on an industrial scale.

I think in general the reduction in face to face contact and the other communication options have played a part.

Yes! There’s an incredibly affluent naice area near me. People are so rude, never let each other out at junctions, barely tolerate each other’s existence, unless they know each other in which case they’ll stop traffic for a chat.

my absolute favourite one was in the local supermarket
young cashier said “I’m very sorry I’m closing as I’m going on my lunch”
the man said “no your not” and proceeded to just load up. The poor lad didn’t say a word and sent it through. There wasn’t a queue at the other check out.

posh, Conservative, middle class area

What you are describing is the 'rags to riches' syndrome. Nothing to do with Conservatives or posh people

Me too. To generalise broadly, middle aged men are appallingly entitled and rude. I often imagine how much nicer it would be without them.

I've found the complete opposite tbh. I mean... there are some rude people wherever you go, of course, and I agree it's got worse. But I've worked in posh, leafy areas and poorer areas. The rudest behaviour I've come across has been in the latter.

One thing I've noticed on MN is that some people seem to take umbrage at people who have a not rude, but confident, fairly direct, non-apologetic or even distant manner, because they perceive that as arrogant, cold or snobbish. It's almost as if they find that somehow more objectionable than actually out-and-out rude behaviour (swearing at people, shouting etc). Maybe because they perceive it as class-based.

@@Abitofalark Definitely a Conservative area. They have FB groups where neighbours will 'warn' everyone about things like 'man lurking in the area - not a racist but he is an Asian man going door to door' turns out he was posting business cards 🤦‍♀️ My friend is on the surface, a leftie and I would say a classic NIMBY. Horrified by inequality, exclusion etc, but it's kind of aimed everywhere but her area. She wanted to live there for years and so was very aware of the complete lack of diversity, but it was their dream area. I just can't understand if you champion diversity so much, why not you'd want to live somewhere with zero diversity.

I don't want us to drift apart, but I do feel like I take more rudeness from her because it's kind of an accepted thing iyswim. Things like asking if she'd like another drink, I usually just get an abrupt "yes" and it grates on me. I can't say "yes....what?..." but my face must occasionally give it away.

I know what you mean! My husband thinks I’m bats because I say “please” and “thank you” to Alexa! 🤣🤣🤣

What counts as good manners has changed, and so is who is included. People will wax lyrical about how people were politer in the 60s/70s, but they normally mean that people were more deferential to white men and women. Open racism, which I consider to be pretty damn rude, was much more acceptable.

Whether or not this 'salt of the earth', oh the working classes are so polite and friendly and the middle classes are rude narrative is true also depends on what you count. I used to live in a deprived area and now live in a very middle class one and there is definitely more snottiness here, but no one sets each other's cars on fire or stabs each other (of course nor did the vast majority of people in the deprived area but it was a pretty common occurrence), which again I think is quite rude. There was a lot more antisocial behaviour, which is inherently rude. It's like people go on about how middle class children are ruder and more entitled - the little children in the deprived area were often more 'in line' (and their parents quite frequently openly hit them to keep them so) but some of the teens vandalized the community, graffitied and intimidated people in a way I've never seen in the middle class area, and which again I think is pretty rude and entitled.

When I was at school back in the 70s I had a very middle class friend (I was working class) and I was astonished at how rude her snooty parents were. As well as forever telling me I was too skinny (I was naturally skinny, god I thought that was so bloody rude ) they complained that when my friend I visited their daughter (our school friend) we had the audacity to wear Jeans. We walked several miles on a cold December day to see her but that was neither here nor there. I can still get mad at their lack of manners even though it was decades ago. I had more class as a working class teen than they did as a snobby middle class adult couple.

I just can't understand if you champion diversity so much, why not you'd want to live somewhere with zero diversity

Hypocrisy

How come your friend is suddenly well-off OP? Did she marry into money? i.e. slash the Conservatives and the 'posh' but secretly wishes she was one of them?

Really interesting question OP. The other day I bought a couple of old comedy DVDs from a charity shop - The Good Life and Dear John. I was really struck by how beautifully and politely many of the characters spoke. I know they are comedy shows, but I can't imagine people talking that way in a modern sitcom. It would have to be more edgy and nasty.

There has definitely been a decline in ritualised behavior/ritualised manners. There is a scene in Dear John, for example, where the characters go to a party at someone's house. It is striking to watch them politely interact. People just don't know how to do that now.

It isn't only the so-called 'upper classes'. There has been a decline across the board. Personally, I blame Thatcher. She made everything about money. When I was a child (late '70s), you often heard people described as 'common'. You were judged more by your manners, education, reading habits, and so on, than by your income. 'Common' didn't mean 'poor' btw, it meant rude, vulgar, ignorant, loud and ill-mannered. My grandfather, a working-class man, used to make my little brother step off the pavement when a woman approached! And if we went to another kid's house to play, we'd have to say "thankyou for having me."

We are now in a Thatcherite world. We're mini-Americans, with all their greed and aggression and vulgarity. The Sun newspaper perfectly captures the Thatcherite spirit: ugly, loud, brash and ignorant. In a Thatcherite world, manners are for wimps. They won't get you anywhere. If you want to be a 'winner', you've got to forget all that and be pushy and aggressive instead.

Maybe that's why people don't bother to instil manners in their children anymore. Manners won't get you anywhere.

I agree with some of the posters about the middle aged MS men, who can be truly awful. I also moved from a deprived area to a naice little town with a Waitrose and must say that on the whole queues in Aldi/Lidl are much nicer than in Waitrose, people tend to smile more and let others through if they don't have a lot of shopping, whereas in Waitrose I witnessed arguments, pushing in and MS brittle looking women fighting over the last reduced roasted chickens on Sunday afternoons. But, if you consider littering rude, and I do, where I lived before was incredibly friendly but the amount of litter constantly being dropped was unbelievable!!! I once picked litter after a young man who dropped it and told him that he had dropped something. His answer was: "Don't worry love, I don't need it anymore!" I didn't pursue the matter and put his crap in my own bin. Like a previous poster said, vandalism, criminal damage, shouting and swearing are not very polite, but some MS people also have a tendency to be unpleasant in their own uppity way, too 🤨.

You've made me think of my dear, lovely nanna who unfailingly says please and thank you to her Alexa 😭❤️

I find the upper middle class families I know are super strict on manners for their DC. Lots of pleases and thank yous, or they’re pulled up on it.

A friend of mine lives in a fairly UC area (home counties) while being from a WC background herself. I've noticed that she's quite short with staff and other people when she's there - but it seems to be a defence.

When she's out in east Kent with me she's unfailingly lovely to all and much more realxed!

I wonder if it's to do with the competitive nature of that society? I certainly don't seem to get much back from waiters and shop staff when I'm friendly and polite there - it's as though it's not respected.