To be reluctant to pay travel costs again

[Subaru4336]

Pre-pandemic I used to have a 4+hr commute, and worked in the office 3 days/week, leaving home ~5am and returning home after 7pm. Because I was travelling 3 days a week, an annual season ticket was the cheapest option.

Fast forward to now, and my company are wanting to mandate a minimum of 1 day/week in the office. This would represent a cost of ~£300/mth, which I obviously haven't been paying for the last 2.5yrs.

If I were to go to the office, I would still spend a significant time on Teams calls, as my team are spread across various locations (and have different offices as their local hubs).

We've had below inflation payrises for at least the last 10 years, and so I'm feeling somewhat resentful that my household budget has to take a £300/mth hit, on top of all the other rising costs, just to sit somewhere different on Teams, and be 'present' in the office.

Am I being unreasonable?!

I have a friend whose work is like this. Go into an office to sit in zoom meetings with colleagues at home. No point at all.

Your friend sits in an entirely empty office with everyone she works with at home? I'm afraid I think your friend may be exaggerating for effect. or, if she isn't she has a very good case to ask why she is the only one that the workplace insists comes in.

i Am in a similar situation, except my 1 day/week actually is useful (weekly face to face meetings) but any other day I’d be in my office alone, so I simply don’t go. Technically I’m meant to be in 2 days/week but it’s not policed.

I’d echo PP who suggested asking about actual benefits and will everyone be encouraged to be in in the same day? And also not bothering quite every week, and seeing if anyone actually cares…

I also do think the money matters if you’ve had below inflation pay rise. Lack of travel costs helps compensate for that, as well as gaining time. However much OP is paid, nobody wants to feel they’re taking home less money for exactly the same hours despite having more experience.

Your friend sits in an entirely empty office with everyone she works with at home? I'm afraid I think your friend may be exaggerating for effect. or, if she isn't she has a very good case to ask why she is the only one that the workplace insists comes in.

It doesn't have to be entirely empty to be pointless. If she's there sat on zoom meetings all day then there is no benefit.

I went in to an office recently, there were 8 of us there and pretty much everyone was sat on teams all day with people elsewhere/at home. None of the people in are connected to what I do so it wasn't like it was a chance to see colleagues. One person from my wider team was there (but we don't have any work in common) and they were the only person I spoke to all day and that was the odd few minutes between our calls. So I drove a 3 hour round trip to sit on the same calls I would have done at home and worked less hours than I would have because of the drive.

Zero benefit to anyone, including the business. All it's doing is building resentment in an area where it's already hard to attract good people.

I find the people who prefer to wfh do put a spin on going to the office.

They like wfh because it enables them to set their own timetable, do jobs round the house, take the children to school, avoid the need for wrap around childcare because the children just amuse themselves at home after being picked up (which they can now do in work hours), and they don't spend all day in the house because they can pop out and meet someone for coffee or go for a run with a friend at lunch time .

And yet, when they go to the office, their job involves spending all day on teleconferences.

If your employer insists that you go to the office, why not organise collaboration meetings for that day, or at least make sure some/all of your team come in at the same time? And maybe take the time to speak to some colleagues outside of your immediate area to find out something you now know nothing about because wfh means you no longer get the random chats in the office kitchen.

It's quite possible to view it positively, but not if you are immersed in the "what's the point" mindset.

@redskyatnight kindly don't generalise, what you're saying about 'people that wfh' might be true of some (& they also may work into the evening to make up time), but not all.

I take my daughter to school before 8am, and pick her up at 6, so definitely doesn't interfere with my working hours, my son walks to and from school, and has never stayed for wrap around care. I don't pop and meet anyone for coffee, or lunch. I'm more productive at home because there are less distractions, not more.

Face to face collaboration meetings are useful, but they're not required once a week.

Yeah my point exactly and why I will walk of they try to make me. I'm already slightly resentful of my manager because he's a useless prick, but I can get by that while the overall situation works in my favour. When it no longer does, bye.

@redskyatnight you know homeworkers are individuals right? We don't all do the exact same thing every day.

I wfh, so does dh. We generally don't leave the house other than drop off and pick up for our DCs. If I was working in the office (assuming closest here but it could equally be 90 minutes away) my day would be:
Drop off 8:45 and head in
Arrive at the office by 9
Work until 4, taking mandated 30 minute break
Collect from school
Home 4:30
So 6 1/2 hours working time and then log in and work in the evening to make up lost time

While wfh would be:
Log in 7:30
Drop off dc leaving 8:40, back by 9
Work 9-1 then have a 10 minute break to eat
Work 1:10-4
Collect dc
So 8+ hours working time and then log in later to catch up on anything outstanding if needed

I might pop the washing in or answer the door for a parcel but that's no different to the many, many times I'd be interrupted in the office for a chat or whatever.

Also, like many, there is flexible working/flexitime so if I choose to meet someone, pop to the gym or whatever then it's covered because hours are over the day/week/month. Next week I'll be putting in a 14 hour day to attend a meeting at an office hours away, you can be damn sure I'll be taking that time back.

I was generalising (slightly for effect) in the same way that most of the wfh people on this thread are generalising that it's pointless to go back to the office.

My points may not be valid for all, but they are certainly valid for some.
Also when I hear that wfh people like working from home because there are no distractions, I'm afraid my experience of that in practice means "I can ignore questions from colleagues that I don't want to answer". And if you are in a job that involves you being on teleconferences for most of the day, I'm not sure what distractions you are talking about - do colleagues in the office really try to disturb you mid teleconference?

There is definitely more to being in the office productivity.
it’s all about seeing people face to face, having coffee chats that never happen at home, bouncing ideas of each other. Juniors seeing and learning from seniors. Questions answered in five minutes and a meeting not needed.
I think in a few years the firms that are still 100% home working wont have the same employee development that office /hybrid based companies do.

I do not do any of those things when working from home.
I do go into the office when colleagues are there and have a nice social chat and gossip. I enjoy it. I do not have any collaborative meetings as everyone I collaborate with lives at least a few hundred miles away anyway. And my issue in my office has always been warding off "helpful" suggestions from colleagues who do not understand the legislative framework I have to adhere to i.e this way would be quicker - yes it would, but also illegal as blah, blah.

But the social and gossip side I enjoy. Next Thursday going into the office and we have planned lunch out in the pub. I know my work output will be much lower that day, but I will have a nice day.

There is this idea that colleagues all understand enough about each others work to help each other out and collaborate. The only help I ever get from colleagues is a quick PC issue that I will ask a colleague about before ringing IT. The colleague I sit next to in the office does finances, I can't help her either. We don't all have project management/collaborative type jobs.

I feel exactly the same, but have enough to awareness to realise that my employer isn’t being unreasonable. I am

And although chatting to colleagues about personal stuff and gossip makes my working day more fun, I really fail to see the point in terms of work outputs. Unless it is the kind of workplace that wants everyone to feel like a family so they work way over their hours and focus their life on their work. Fuck that. I enjoy work, and then I leave that behind at 5 pm on the dot.

We have quick 3-minute zoom meetings - a quick message, are you free now for 5 minutes? You do not need meetings set to get clarity on a single issue.

I work in a specialist area and have been able to go too far more training and briefings in the last 12 months than in the last 5 years. Because they have been online it makes it cheap and takes less time. Far easier to get an agreement for me to attend an hour's online seminar as I did yesterday than get permission to travel to London 2 hours away with all the costs and nearly the whole day out of the office.
I have to be honest, I always think learning from colleagues is overexaggerated by managers. Often as a way of avoiding funding proper training and skills development. If you are talking about young people straight from school still having to learn not to use personal phones at their desk and basic work-ready stuff, yes that is learned from colleagues.
But with anything more complex, colleagues do not have the time to sit and teach you how to do something. Anything from how to use excel, to how to develop a project management plan. You need proper training.

I completely understand where you’re coming from. I think if I was required to go back into the office again I would look for another job. The company would gain nothing from it and neither would I.

This set up is infinitely better. I save so much time and money and I walk my dog at lunch. I feel really lucky and I wish more employers would implement home working where appropriate.

Exactly this

Some good points have been raised on both sides of this argument. Personally, I'm firmly on the side of being in the office. Some of the arguments for working at home and productivity being higher, focus very much on self, and firmly ignore the benefits to the wider team, of being together.

I also don't think businesses have yet seen the full extent of the damage caused by WFH. Or in some cases, managers have seen it, but their desire to remain WFH to suit their own personal situations, stops them insisting staff return to the office.

In my personal experience, there are people WFH that genuinely believe they are being productive, but are spending three days doing something that could be done in one. And without seeing for themselves what others around them are doing, they don't get that "What's that clever thing you just did with that spreadsheet? Could you show me?".

A lot of the pleasure and sense of belonging I got from my organisation has probably gone for good now. I'm sad things are going this way, but suspect we're too far gone now.

@TartanCurtains your example puzzles me. How would I know what clever thing my colleague had done with a spreadsheet? I am doing my own work. Not sitting watching a colleague doing their work. And if people do not know properly how to do spreadsheets, send them on a course. Training matters.

It sounds like we work in quite different environments, so my example doesn't translate to your situation.

I work in a team where we all do similar but related jobs. And there's a fair bit of sitting with others, talking through things, often on spreadsheets. In my particular office, we see a lot of how colleagues work, and share that knowledge.

We have enough internal knowledge to not require to send everyone on an excel course, but are happy to do so when appropriate.

It is different if everyone is doing very similar jobs.

And although chatting to colleagues about personal stuff and gossip makes my working day more fun, I really fail to see the point in terms of work outputs.

It's interesting how everyone views work differently. I remember a thread about a woman in a team of men, all working from home. She discovered that many of the men were on a separate WhatsApp group, discussing football. They even used to meet at the pub, with the boss, all based on the love of football. The woman was concerned that she'd worked hard to get to her position but now she was losing out on those moments where more than just work production led to promotion and work opportunites.

I am not interested in promotion so do not care about work chats or gossip leading to this. As long as I keep hitting my targets, my job should be fine.

She discovered that many of the men were on a separate WhatsApp group, discussing football. They even used to meet at the pub, with the boss, all based on the love of football. The woman was concerned that she'd worked hard to get to her position but now she was losing out on those moments where more than just work production led to promotion and work opportunites

And your take from this was people should be in the office because non work related chat leads to promotions? Not that promotions and work opportunities should be advertised fairly and awarded on merit and not be dished out as some sort of boys club.

YANBU. I’ve got a disability which means I can’t travel unsupervised on public transport (I have seizures) and I also can’t drive. My employer is trying to make me go in once a month even though it’s 160 miles away. I’m getting an occupational health referral to sort it out. Funny how employers are always ‘disability friendly’ until it doesn’t suit them.

Do you have any reason you can’t go in that OH could help you with?

If you want a full time WFH job then find one.