To dread every single night

[Anotherkaren]

I have exhausted everything to try and get into a good routine at night. My DD (4) has decided she cannot sleep without an adult next to her. My son (20 months) has been a nightmare sleeper since he was born, i BF and coslept until 16 months and then stopped breastfeeding, I then carried on co-sleeping as he just wouldn’t settle. The past 4 weeks he has been in his cot as neither of us are getting decent sleep when we are together. I have tried everything, singing laying with him, he was up until 11pm last night, wide awake! I sometimes have to take him for a drive as it seems to be the only thing that works.

please help I am so exhausted. DH works late so most nights it is me and I need to sort this out!

He also won’t nap! I have just walked for miles in his pram and still nothing! How can he not be tired! He wakes up at every single noise too!

Will she accept a teddy and a photo of you as a substitute?

Thanks so much for getting back to me! That’s a good ideal actually, I feel she is making every possible excuse, needs a wee, tickle my back, sing to me etc.

my son is my main issue as 11pm is just too late. I have been so patient up until now but I am getting really fed up. I thought I had it the night before last as I lay with him in our bed with some milk and he went off to sleep within 30 mins, within half an hour he was awake again and stayed up until 10.

If you're trying to get him to settle in a good routine with no crying, that may not be possible. At one point you may just have to stick him in bed at 20h, tell him now is time to sleep, and leave him to it. Check on him periodically until you yourself go to bed but don't take him out of his bed.

He'll cry and rage especially the first nights as this is not what he's used to. But so long as he is fed, clean, safe, you've done your job as a parent. A bit of crying is inevitable at this point. If you get through the first couple of weeks, it should get better.

I did that with mine starting from 3 months old and it worked fine, they both sleep 20h-7h30. In your case it'll be more of an uphill battle as they have some bad habits to break but it is achievable.

Also I leave mine with a night light and some toys so they can keep busy if they're not sleepy just yet. They usually fall asleep within 30min, on their own.

The thing is, he has the most ear piercing scream ever! He will wake up my DD? I actually thing he has damaged my ears as they constantly pop 😂

My DS was like yours (he wouldn't nap in the day either) and the only thing that worked was giving him story and music tapes, a teddy and a photo.

I can’t talk as my routine is taking till 9.30pm at the moment! For my 21m old and 3.5yo. But when my DS was around a year old I realised he was finding it harder to settle with me in the room sitting beside him in the cot than when I left him to it. He was trying to keep engaging with me, why not? I’m fun!

But when I left there would be some crying but more frustrated than really upset.

Your sleep aids (car, lying beside, etc are getting in the way now, sounds like time to try and remove some of them as they may be working things worse.

Have you heard of the gradual retreat method? That might be one to try, with both of them.

Is it possible you aren’t tiring him out? He’s 20months so you walking with him riding in a pram is only going to tire you out! I used to ensure lots of walking and active play at that age so they would burn off that energy and then go to bed ok.

Mine also liked the car so we put on a fan for white noise and that helped them to sleep.

I never had to resort to letting them cry it out.

On the 4yr old, it’s quite often for them to regress a bit as they see the new sibling taking the lions share of the attention and they want extra reassurance. Can you put her to bed after the 20mo old? So she gets some mummy and me time.

I had a similar age gap and problem. It's a bit crazy but I ended up putting them both in the same room and sleeping on a camping mat in between their beds until they got into it. It meant I had to go to bed early but it worked.
It took two or three weeks before I wasn't sleeping there. After that, I had a story, song kiss and a night night phrase I would say every night as a routine. Each one didn't want to be the naughty one.

After that, they were only ever allowed in for a cuddle if they were ill and I was worried about them. They got cuddles for nightmares but I got into bed with them for a few minutes then left.

I still tell them the phrase now to say goodnight and they love it. They're teenagers, which is quite sweet.

The trouble is there is no easy fix to this really.
You either have to accept that this is the way it is for now and put up with the status quo or you have to get tough.
Tough will involve changes which will involve crying.
It really does come down to how much you want to change things. Gradual retreat or similar methods will work in the long term but you have to want it.
As you will see from PP it’s not what everyone wants and they will tell you that what your family is going through is normal and you just have to ride it out and let the kids do it the way they want.
Personally it would have killed me so I got tough. We sleep trained ours and they have been fantastic sleepers ever since. It was hard and emotional but I never regretted it.

Maybe try gradual retreat with DS. I did it with my older son.no crying. Bit of moany whining. Really helped his night waking too.

Tell your 4 yr old what is going on and sleep train the 18 month old. It will take about 3 days, so do it over a weekend. Controlled crying is probably the answer but you have to be really strict and not talk or make eye contact at all. Maybe the 4 yr old and you can have a sleepover/camp in the living room while it happens.

Then work on the 4 yr old. Special teddy, lavender spray and again hold the line, she is old enough to understand she has to stay in her bedroom

I used the gradual retreat method wjfh my two and it worked for us, it took time and patience though.
Just throwing out another suggestion here, have you thought about putting them in the same room as each other? Make a big deal about it and how much fun it will be...like a sleepover. Then leave them to it and hopefully they will keep each other company?

@MerylSqueak I thought this!!!!, however he walked to the lake and I pushed him back with a lot extra, I also park a 5 minute walk away from school so I don’t think it is that tbh

I'd be doing tough love if I were you. In bed, kiss night night, door shut, downstairs with earplugs in. I'm sure plenty of people will be along to tell me I'm a monster, but enough is enough. Everyone goes on about how much of a godsend cosleeping is, but they never tell you how hard it is to get the fuckers out of your bed!

Things to try... (not all at once!)

Calpol
Ibuprofen
Bongella (baby)
Snack before nap and full tummy before bed (to make sure not hungry)
Diary for allergies e.g. dairy
Dark room (black out blind and curtains)
Too hot? Lightweight sheet or no sheet (but sometimes they like something on them
Putting socks on to sleep (something about sensations on feet keeping them awake/cold feet)
Don't assume the nap has been dropped, keep trying for a full month before dropping it as it can be a temporary glitch due to teething etc
Playground/park/baby group etc
Doctors visit to check for ear infections etc if they seem unwell have a temperature etc (in ear thermometers are good)

I don’t think you are a monster! Trust me I am at my wits end!

Oh god, you have my sympathy. Nothing worked for us until I was given prescription melatonin at age 8. I have no idea how we made it that far. She still doesn’t sleep through.

I wish I’d just let mine watch telly at night and driven her to sleep in the day. She wasn’t sleeping anyway, and it would have been much less frustrating for both of us. I feel it blighted her childhood and I deeply regret trying to do it ‘properly’ for so long. It didn’t work anyway and she’s still an awful sleeper at 12. You could try a starlight projector and an audiobook.

Another one that's used the gradual retreat method with huge success, albeit a long time ago now!) But, like others have said, you have to really want it for it to work, sitting on a chair on the landing for an hour at 2am is brutal, but if you stick with it, it builds trust and they know you're there if they need you.

I'd say it took about 2-3 weeks from first stage of sleeping in my daughter's room on her floor, to being able to put her to bed and her stay there and sleep! (Our issue came up following illness, she'd previously been in a great routine from a baby, but again, it took a lot of effort and tears!)

I voted YABU as you obviously have to let them cry. It's not acceptable. Children need sleep. Stick the youngest in his cot and let him cry. He'll soon give up. Not sure what you do about the oldest but she can't carry on calling the shots that's for sure. Very un-mumsnet but there you are.

That's hilarious. Every single mother across the globe can now get a full nights sleep!

Totally agree with this. Kid can't rage and scream forever. Eventually will tire himself out and sleep. Will soon get the message that mum is not giving in.

Not a monster at all. You sound like a sensible mum who doesn't want the kids calling the shots. I totally agree with you. My bed is my domain (getting the dog off it sometimes is an issue, but no kids allowed in there).

Thanks so much for getting back to me! That’s a good ideal actually, I feel she is making every possible excuse, needs a wee, tickle my back, sing to me etc

I used to put them to bed, same time every night, read a story and leave quietly. If either of them messed about I would tell them firmly no, they need to go to sleep and running around or drinking or whatever wasn't going to help. If you are firm and stick to it then I believe it works. I didn't entertain any bed swapping or cosleeping. We had twins so I was.stricy because one could set the other off. Good luck!