To disagree with the statement "the other woman owes you nothing"

[Sarahcoggles]

I see this time and again on MN.
Woman posts that husband is having an affair. She hates the OW and is very angry with her, as well as being angry with husband of course.
Then a load of posters pile in saying she should direct all her anger at husband, as he was the only one who owed her anything. The OW owed her nothing, so she shouldn't be angry with her.

I think that's wrong. We all owe our fellow human beings respect and courtesy. If I bump someone's car in a car park I should leave them a note. I don't owe them anything, I never promised I wouldn't bump into their car, they didn't put their trust in me not to bump into their car , I never promised to pay for any damage that I might do to their car. They don't even know me. But it's still my fault, my carelessness, and common courtesy dictates that I should leave a note and be held accountable.

Why is it perfectly fine to have a relationship with someone else's husband, knowing that you're going to hurt that person, just because they're a stranger and you never promised you wouldn't shag their husband?

Personally I think both parties are equally to blame, just in different ways.

No, I don’t owe anyone not to do those things. The fact that I don’t or wouldn’t do those things has nothing to do with ‘owing’ though, that’s my point.

You think we do have a moral responsibility not to do those things, and that’s fair enough. You’re entitled to hold that view, but you holding that view is going to be meaningless to anyone that doesn’t. Your ability to apply that principle does not extend any further than yourself. A social contract only matters to those who wishing to uphold it, if the terms of it can even be agreed.

if someone behaves towards me in a horrible way then I’m unlikely to think much of them, or want to be around them. I’ll probably actively dislike them and be an absolute arsehole back to them. Do I think they ‘owe’ it to me to not behave in that way? No. I can think someone is an arsehole without thinking they’ve let me down, or betrayed me.

I think I could accept maybe even have a tiny bit of respect for an OW if she came right out with "I have literally no morals".
At least she would be being honest and I can respect that. It is the bullshit stories the OW and the married person make up which is the bit which drains all and any drop of respect from the situation.

I think this comes down to semantics over the word 'owe'.

But I wasn't disagreeing with that. I don't think how we treat other people should depend on a legalistic idea of obligations or potential punishments.

I think we 'owe' people in a broader sense, not to treat them like shit, just because we can. The categorical imperative.

There are so many examples around us of what happens when people treat other people appallingly purely because they can't be held to account for it.

I think morality and ethics matter more than legal obligation, in the final analysis.

I agree.

I think if you ask yourself: 'Are my voluntary actions going to cause a huge amount of distress to someone else?' and the answer is, 'yes and probably to their children as well', then you are accountable for your part in the hurt you're causing.

I have no skin in this game by the way. I've never been cheated on or cheated with anyone. I just care about not being a shitty person.

"I just care about not being a shitty person"

But the thing is, most OW not only don't care about being a shitty person or not being a shitty person - it literally never crosses their mind either way.

As a previous poster said, i do think there are two different types of people in life - those who have the capacity to grasp the concept of lifelong commitment and the idea of "vows" - and those who really do not have any such capacity and just see life as a series of "experiences" or "opportunities" for them to grab/go for should they so chose

This is nonsense. I imagine most or indeed all OW are well able to grasp the concept of lifelong commitment, they just haven’t necessarily made one themselves and don’t think a commitment someone else made is binding on them. Nobody can make a promise on my behalf. If you make a commitment, it’s up to you to stick to it.

And before anyone makes any accusations, I’m not an OW, never have been, never will be and neither am I a wronged wife. I just strongly reject the belief that random strangers can take vows that confer an obligation on me and that I owe random strangers the same commitment and loyalty as their spouses owe them.

"This is nonsense. I imagine most or indeed all OW are well able to grasp the concept of lifelong commitment, they just haven’t necessarily made one themselves and don’t think a commitment someone else made is binding on them. Nobody can make a promise on my behalf. If you make a commitment, it’s up to you to stick to it."

But the point is that the OW is going for someone who very blatently and openly breaks supposed "lifelong commitments" in order to be with the them, and by going for someone like that they are saying that they are happy and content to be with someone who has the capacity to do that, that that is a characteristic they are fine with, and content to be in a relationship with someone like that.

Sure of course often they will be telling themselves "well he was not committed to the wife but with me it will be different..." etc. Are you saying that this type of justification is something you agree with sammylady37?

Of course the vow between the husband and wife is not given for the benefit of or with the OW in mind/to protect the wife. I never said that was the case.

The OW (and H) owe my son everything. They have uprooted our lives, along with her H and kids lives.

*But the point is that the OW is going for someone who very blatently and openly breaks supposed "lifelong commitments" in order to be with the them, and by going for someone like that they are saying that they are happy and content to be with someone who has the capacity to do that, that that is a characteristic they are fine with, and content to be in a relationship with someone like that.

Sure of course often they will be telling themselves "well he was not committed to the wife but with me it will be different..." etc. Are you saying that this type of justification is something you agree with sammylady37?*

But that’s not what you said in the post I was replying to. You said that OW didn’t grasp the concept of lifelong commitment- that’s quite different from grasping the concept perfectly well but not perceiving themselves to have a role in enforcing commitments others have made.

And maybe the OW doesn’t/don’t want a relationship with ‘someone like that’ precisely because they very clearly ‘grasp the concept of lifelong commitment’ and know they don’t actually want that. So they’re perfectly happy to have a commitment free fling (not relationship) with someone to whom commitment clearly isn’t the be all and end all either?

"And maybe the OW doesn’t/don’t want a relationship with ‘someone like that’ precisely because they very clearly ‘grasp the concept of lifelong commitment’ and know they don’t actually want that. So they’re perfectly happy to have a commitment free fling (not relationship) with someone to whom commitment clearly isn’t the be all and end all either?"

The above is exactly what i meant when I said:

"who really do not have any such capacity and just see life as a series of "experiences" or "opportunities" for them to grab/go for should they so chose.
You can only hope that the OW herself is used as an "experience" or "opportunity" by others along the way (although admittedly she is likely the type of person who will not give a sh*t if someone uses her)"

I think the married person cheating is 100% responsible for their own actions and the person they're cheating with is also 100% for their own actions.

OP said they're equally to blame and I think that's where the issue lies with this topic. There isn't a finite amount of total 'blame' that can be allocated to the parties involved in an affair.

It's not a case of there being a finite, total amount of blame that can be split 30/70 or 50/50 or 80/20.

It's 100/100 for each separate party and their own individual actions, IMO.

But that doesn’t mean they don’t or can’t grasp the concept of commitment. It just means they’re not interested in it for themselves. Or that they don’t perceive they have a role in enforcing commitments made by others. But they may very still grasp the concept of commitment.

Few OW believe they are having an affair with a man who should remain committed for life to his spouse.
Most believe their AP partner to be very unhappily married to a woman who is controlling or abusive, lazy or grasping, having an affair themselves, has lost all interest in the marriage...
If the OW believes even a fraction of the things a cheating man tells her, she will see him breaking his commitment as justifiable.

There is a Russian saying which roughly translates as "the dog can't hump an unwilling bich". And there is something in the Bible along the lines of not leading anyone into temptation?
The blame falls to both.
And there's is one more thing. They fck not only each other, but also those close to them. And it is unforgivable in regard to the children.

This is the third post in the last few days in which I’ve seen someone quote the bible as if it’s the definitive authority on something, or indeed, on anything. Baffling!

@sammylady37 - for some people, belief and faith have meaning. It might be baffling to you, but it's relevant to them. Or 'us'.

Well some people do follow the Bible. If you don't believe in it, just disregard it.

What I’m baffled by is people quoting the bible on a thread on which they have no knowledge of the beliefs (or lack thereof) of others, and whether or not the bible has any relevance to others.

I think most of the time the OW has been told so much about what a shitty person the wife is, that they feel that they are saving the husband from a life of misery.

Hmmm
Where did I say that the BIble is a definitive authority on something? I did not even give a direct quote.
What I definitely said was that the blame falls on both.

sammylady37

it is obvious to most people that whilst modern society in 2022 has pretty much zero disincentives for people to be unfaithful to their spouses and leave them for other people - (indeed a large chunk of family law expressly contemplates this type of thing), in contrast the Bible contains express prohibitions against being unfaithful to your spouse (adultery).

Just because you do not believe in or agree with the bible / are not Christian etc does not mean those parts of the bible are not there.

It’s utterly irrelevant to me (and many others) what is or isn’t in the bible. I don’t live my life by it. It has no more relevance in my life than Harry Potter or Lord of the Rings.

And in all this there's one thing I surely don't understand. If someone wants to run free and sleep around, why get married at all? Why the hell you must get married, then become unfaithful to your spouse, play games, hide your phone, hide from friends and family, spend money on hotels or whatever, try to hide evidence, and then - crying children, divorce... just what for? Stay single and roam free! No problems at all!

The OW that XH fucked off with was a friend of mine. She was someone who had known me for quite a while. She attended my hen weekend and my wedding (Church service where the congregation are also asked to help the couple in supporting and upholding their marriage. Though I know this isn’t legally binding then to do this!). She knew the DC and our family situation. XH was ultimately responsible, but she could have stopped seeing him (or refused to see him).

XH told me he had only started seeing her when he moved in with her - but I heard they’d been seeing each other for quite a time before (>2-3 months). This was during a time where we’d just temporarily separated with a view to him getting sober and clean, and working on our marriage! Maybe he told her a pack of lies, but she was one of the only friends that didn’t contact me in that time to see how I was doing (we were open with what was happening in order to get good support).

I found out about it all from XH’s now ex best friend - he didn’t agree with what was going on and told XH that if he didn’t either stop it or come clean, he’d tell me. XH did neither, so I was told. I’ll always be grateful to the friend for telling me as I thought I was going nuts.

i think it’s one thing when someone is completely not aware that they’re the OW. A different thing altogether when they know that they’re seeing a man who is married or in a relationship. NB just because I say all the above, I don’t mean letting the husband off the hook by any means!