Girl in boyish clothes = YES, boy in clothes that are even the tiniest bit feminine = NO!

[GrahameSylvia]

Does anyone else think its a bit unreasonable that when dressing young kids (babies, toddlers, and perhaps also a bit older), a lot of people now seem to think that dressing girls in slightly more boyish clothes (blue, dinosaur print, stuff with 'strong girl' etc printed on it) is great, progressive, cool etc. But that if you put your baby or toddler boy in one item that is even the slightest bit feminine, even when paired with other boy-ish stuff (I'm talking blue dungarees with a tiger on them and a vest that has gone a tiny bit peach colored in the wash) people instantly assume they are a girl and / or are made quite uncomfortable and ask why your kid is dressed as a girl??

I'd say we dress our one year old somewhere between 'standard boy' and what we think of as neutral - not that this should matter. There is plenty of blue, brown green in his wardrobe, though also some yellow, brighter prints and the occasional bit of dark purple or fawn. But anytime he has the slightly 'girlier' things on everyone calls him she. We've also had a couple of instances of relatives (not always older ones) being uncomfortable or mocking him / us when he's been dressed in supposedly 'girly' things e.g. a red cardigan, a bonnet with earflaps instead of a beanie, dungarees printed with sweetcorns.

Since then I've started to look round and noticed that even in our relatively progressive, affluent bit of the world some girls are dressed very femininely, but plenty are dressed in stuff that is boyish or neutral and everyone still assumes they are girls. But every boy is wearing camouflage, sludge colours and vehicle prints. The same extends to toys, plenty of girl toddlers being encouraged to play with lego and cars and get muddy, but parents at our local affluent play cafe actively discouraging boys from picking up dolls or dollhouses - despite the fact that most of these girls will grow up to own cars and drive and the boys will own houses and have babies.

So why do all these progressive folks feel it is okay and positive for girls to be 'boyish' but still seem to be (consciously or unconsciously) very against their little boys being the slightest bit feminine?

Has anyone else seen the same / seen different / think its unreasonable to condition little boys to be against anything 'soft', 'feminine' or 'caring'? Doesn't feminism / progress cut both ways?

I've found that boys clothes are generally cut wider and longer - my DS has plenty of hand me downs from his older sister and the stuff that was originally for boys has lasted much better than stuff from the "girls" side of the shop. Especially in the body length of tops - the hand me downs with slightly puffy "girl" sleeves are a good inch or 2 shorter than the same age and "brand" -supermarket- with a more normal sleeve. Fabrics are also generally thicker and harder wearing too in the "boy" selection.

It's noticeable that almost nothing that was originally from the girls' section is in a fit state after both of my kids have worn it, but paw patrol and Gruffalo branded things have been worn for 3 years by DD, moved straight into DS's wardrobe and look like they will be fit to pass on when outgrown by him.

Dark colours are way more practical too - as they don't show stains, and children of both sexes can be muck magnets!

Don't get me started on shorts - it's impossible to get a vaguely comfortable length pair of shorts for a skinny girl because you're struggling for waist size to length ration even more in the boy collection.

My DD has a nickname that is a traditional boys name. She also wears lots of bright colours and wild prints because she likes them and I think it suits her complexion. The amount of people that hear my calling her name, seeing her long curly hair and flowery brightly coloured coat and give me judgey looks is hilarious.

But then I wear some very 'out there' clothes and potentially they might just be judging me. Either way I don't care - she's happy, I'm happy and we make the world brighter with our clothes!

Camouflage, sludge and synthetic jogging bottoms are dreadful.

My sons have a lot of yellows, reds, burgundy, blues and rainbow.

No I don't think it's an issue if people think he's a girl, girls are great, boys are great - whatever. I do care if there are people in his life who are going to make fun of him or make weird remarks, aka "why is he wearing a bonnet not a hat - ha ha ha" "those dungarees are a bit girly aren't they, I'll have to play football with him when he is older to make sure he gets the right idea" because it is going to give him the message that there is something shameful or wrong about girls. If it was up to me I'd try to put the one or two family members who make these comments on the spot by replying "what's wrong with looking like a girl, got something against girls have you, wonder what your wife would make of that?" etc. but my partner prefers not to rock the boat and these comments are coming from that side of the family. For now we've mentioned it to the grandparents - e.g. "have you noticed that DS's uncle often comments that DS looks a bit girly - it's a bit weird that he does this don't you think? Can you please tell him to stop if he does it again?" and their response has been to go "oh don't worry he doesn't look girly" to which we are like "ahhhh, not the point, we don't care if he looks girly or not, we do care if his uncle makes fun of him for looking like a girl whether he does or doesn't." If the comments continue we will step in, as we don't want DS hearing them.

My point is more that there seem to be a lot of people who must on some level subliminal or otherwise, greatly care if their baby / toddler boy is assumed to be a girl and think there is something shaming about this. Because otherwise why are so many parents dressing their boys in a way that absolutely screams BOY - aka army clothes, t-shirts with t-rexes holding guns, entirely blue outfits all the time. When broadly the same demographic is happy to dress their girls much more neutrally / practically and think this is good and progressive.

I don't think feminism as a movement has much hope if all we're doing is telling girls they can be like boys in how they dress, the careers they do (relentless focus on STEM), and their attitudes (be strong, fierce, talkative, stand up for yourself). But nobody is encouraging boys to wear peach and aspire to be poets. Surely we should be encouraging kids to do whatever they want, and raising a society of peach wearing engineers, and poets that fix old cars at the weekend.

Yes! I've noticed this with animals too. Lions, tigers, dogs, dinosaurs etc. = masculine. Cats, horses, ladybirds, rabbits, otters etc. = feminine. DS has a blue all in one with little swans on it and apparently this is girly - even though its a) blue and b) covered in swans which are basically the fiercest meanest birds out there and when I was a kid we were repeatedly told 'a swan could break your arm.'

I am reminded of Wendy Cope's excelent poem, written in response to a letter in The Times from the Engineering Council.

Why isn't there an Engineers' Corner in Westminster Abbey? In Britain we've always made more fuss of a ballad than a blueprint... How many schoolchildren dream of becoming great engineers?

Engineer's Corner
We make more fuss of ballads than of blueprints --
That's why so many poets end up rich,
While engineers scrape by in cheerless garrets.
Who needs a bridge or dam? Who needs a ditch?
Whereas the person who can write a sonnet
Has got it made. It's always been the way,
For everybody knows that we need poems
And everybody reads them every day.
Yes, life is hard if you choose engineering --
You're sure to need another job as well;
You'll have to plan your projects in the evenings
Instead of going out. It must be hell.
While well-heeled poets ride around in Daimlers,
You'll burn the midnight oil to earn a crust,
With no hope of a statue in the Abbey,
With no hope, even, of a modest bust.
No wonder small boys dream of writing couplets
And spurn the bike, the lorry and the train.
There's far too much encouragement of poets --
That's why this country's going down the drain.
-- Wendy Cope

To the poster who asked about strawberries coding as female and bananas as male...I think I can imagine why that is! I mean ew, they're just fruit of certain shapes but people are ridiculous and I guess not aware of their subconscious.

Gosh, and the phallic sweetcorn.

My next trip to the Tu clothing section is going to be interesting!

By the by, I noticed Tu have improved colours, fit and quality in the "girls" section. There were still a few Be Kind slogans but there were a lot more garments that 9 year old DD and I could agree on. There were lots of earth tones, blacks, oranges etc and hardly any pink.

The boys' section also had some bright colours amidst the sludge.

I always let DS3 have the clothes and toys he fancied. He often chose toys that were so called girly like Tea sets and also favoured hobbies popular with girls, crafts and horse riding. He never actually chose pink but often bright colours that made people 🤔like bright orange trousers aged 12 and had always loved any excuse for a costume. He has grown into a big burly bloke butis about to go to college to study fashion!
Never actually had much hassle about it but he was very offended once to be misstaken for a girl when he was wearing a 'historical costume' that involved a tunic.

I think maybe one of the reasons people don't dress boys in 'girls' clothes is that generally girls clothes are pretty shit compared to boys. The fabric is thinner, they cover less (lower necklines, shorter short sleeves etc), they are more fitted and less suitable for play.
My DD always wore DSs hand-me-downs for playing in the garden, days out in the country/beach etc, soft play. Just so much more practical. That's another thing girls aren't supposed to do - play and be comfortable.

Boys get called girls and girls get called boys at that age. It's normal because they all look generic. Nothing to be offended about.

It doesn't bother me if boys can't wear girls clothes without being judged. They are already at a huge advantage due to their sex. Let girls have something that's ok one way but not particularly ok the other.

And, to the pp, there's nothing cool about calling a girl Jack or James. That's just stupid.

It's just plain old fashioned misogyny at play.
Same as why a girl who plays football is praised but a boy who does ballet will almost certainly be laughed at and probably bullied. It's why women who take on traditionally male roles in the workplace are seen as bold, strong and inspirational but men in traditionally female roles are often ridiculed.
It's because women are still seen as lesser. It's good to want your daughter to develop masculine traits but but eurgh, why on earth would you want your boy to have anything to do with those nasty girl things?
In fact why would you even want your girl to be associated with traditionally feminine things when she no longer has to, and has the whole wonderful world of boy stuff available? In our borough the last hockey club recently closed down and there is one small remaining netball club. But there are literally dozens of girls and women's football and rugby teams. Nothing wrong with girls playing traditionally male sports of course but the distain for traditionally female sports is killing them - in my area at least. (And yes, I know hockey is unisex but I think it is widely perceived as female because of the tendency for it to be a girls only thing in schools in the past.)
The number of people who have asked me if DH and I, who both work in STEM fields are disappointed in our DD is shocking. She did humanities at A level, has a BA not a BSc and has taken a very stereotypically female career path. In many people's judgement she has therefore let us down - especially as she was pretty good at science at school and so could have gone down that route had she chosen to. Umm, no. No. I am not disappointed. She is very talented, very driven, is making a success of her life, and most importantly she is very happy. I am just as proud of her as I would have been if she'd become an astrophysicist.
There can never be true equality until traditionally feminine characteristics, interests, activities and abilities are viewed as as valuable as male ones. It starts in babyhood, when mothers often feel positively insulted if their boy is mistaken for a girl and never stops. When we scoff at "girly" boys or men in "women's jobs" it's not them we are harming, it's womankind.

I’ve always dressed my children in clothes that enables them to be kids - leggings, joggers T-shirts etc My girls when younger regularly called boys.
my eldest daughter prefers to be comfortable still now and often gets comments! She loves F1 and people still feel the need to pass judgement and be surprised.
Same with my sisters son he wore joggers/leggings she hated putting jeans on a baby! But again often people felt the need to say something around him not being dressed like a boy! He rocked his sisters princess dresses! Now a huge teenager he still won’t wear jeans!

My ds2 wears girls clothes because he's in hand me downs. He loves it. Loves a sparkle! But I'd imagine peer pressure at nursery will crush it out of him in the next year. He gets odd looks at the supermarket sometimes but I'm very much someone who lets the DC choose their clothes (as long as it's activity and weather appropriate) so I don't care, and it's not a statement I intend to make either. I'm just lazy!

We've also had a couple of instances of relatives (not always older ones) being uncomfortable or mocking him / us when he's been dressed in supposedly 'girly' things e.g. a red cardigan, a bonnet with earflaps instead of a beanie, dungarees printed with sweetcorns. I genuinely cannot see how these are remotely "girly" your relatives are weird.

👏👏👏
I agree with everything you say.

also maybe I’m a weirdo but I quite liked my son being mistaken for a girl because in my head it meant he looked cute😂and meant I hadn’t done a bad job with mixing up his clothes

I agree OP it’s ridiculous double standards and harmful.

I would be saying something rather blunt to the relatives, before your DS gets old enough to understand the comments. If your DH won’t speak up then I think you have to.

YANBU.
It can be hard to tell if a little kid is a boy or a girl, and that’s fine! Especially when they’re babies. Unless my son was dressed head-to-toe in blue when he was a little baby everyone thought he was a girl, just because he was born with a head full of hair. I’d never be offended if someone asked me if he was a boy or a girl, but the stuff that makes people assume is funny sometimes.

I always try and make sure his wardrobe is nicely varied, because I find the endless dark blue and green stuff boring. Boys should be allowed to enjoy colours!

I will say it does seem to be a little better recently with regards to choices in shops but it could be WAY better. Girls clothes are so bright and sparkly and I’m lucky to find a rainbow on a boy shirt. (Right now he’s all about vehicles so his wardrobe is a little more stereotypical).

My eldest DD is now 8 and has her hair cut in a short pixie style and wears boys clothes. She hates pink/sparkly stuff with a passion and it is impossible to find clothes in the girls section that she likes.

It does get slightly annoying when everyone refers to her as my son, or a boy. She is only picking up on some of it and we are supportive of her and thankfully so far she has found it amusing most of the time so we only correct if she looks annoyed. It has also resulted in teasing at school though as some girls at the school are teasing her for acting like a boy (school are being fab at keeping it under control and dealing with the girls involved).

It really shouldn't matter what they are wearing or the length of their hair. They are just choosing what they like and their tastes/styles will change multiple times as they grow and develop into their personalities.

I generally prefer to dress my little girl in 'girls' clothes because neutral or boys stuff tends to be really dull in my opinion (she has a few boys bits but mostly dresses/bright colours) . She does however have 2 baby boy friends who are dressed in mostly 'girls' stuff for the same reason and I think they look fantastic! (think flower print leggings and sparkle jackets). This is the one age where you can dress them in what ever YOU like so why be boring?

I think it's very weird how baby/child clothes are judged by completely different standards than adult clothes...I have only really noticed it lately because I'm pregnant and have had a few comments on things I've bought (don't know the sex).

I bought some little tracksuit trousers in dark green with little cartoon mooses and trees on them and my DP said "...but what if it's a girl?", I was like 😕 Then asked him in adult life, who would be more likely to wear these trousers, me or him??

From teen onwards, both men and women wear all colours, plenty of men wear colourful shirts with patterns, but when it comes to children people don't expect to see a girl in blue or a boy in a pattern? So strange.

My eldest is 7 and similar. In general she isn’t fussed at being mistaken for a boy but she was really upset when some interfering busybody told her off for going into the women’s toilets. People are really weird about policing gender norms sometimes

I've also found I've had to buy mostly "boy's" stuff during this pregnancy due to not knowing the sex because so much girl's stuff has cooler patterns and colours but also stupid words written on.

H&M do good neutral stuff but it's pricey.

My DSs were often mistaken for girls. One often is still as he has long hair, and androdenous, elfin features. He also sometimes wears "girls" clothes because he likes the fabric, design or slimmer cut.

Objectively there is nothing wrong with children wearing clothes of the "wrong" sex, or even genuine mistaken identity. The problem is when there is an underlying misogeny or homophobia attached which is still quite common. Girls can aspire up to "masculine" standards, but as long as boys aspiring to "feminine" standards is seen as lesser or a fault, that means that "feminine" is seen as inferior.

If a boy can freely like pink/ fluffy/ unicorns or whatever feminine sterotype, and be free to like them without judgement, that means that those "feminine" attributes are being respected which is better for both sexes.

Seriously if they are gendering sweetcorn something is wrong with them