To have no clue how to refer to "average people" in this country

[missingmiddle]

I'm new to the UK and I am really struggling with understanding what people mean by "middle class" here.

To me it means - an average family, house in the suburbs, commuting to a boring suburban job, maybe accountants or teachers with kids in state schools or maybe a smart kid on a scholarship. Not struggling too hard to pay the bills and not on benefits (aside from perhaps the wide-ranging ones like child tax credits) but they're expecting to take all 30 years to pay off the mortgage. Enjoy going camping, cinema, dinners with friends etc

In the UK it seems to mean - City professionals/lawyers/bankers who shop at Waitrose and go to the opera and take multiple foreign holidays a year. Children at private/public school, skiing and piano lessons... To me this is upper middle class.

I suppose here the first family is called "working class" but then so are families who are really struggling with money? Do British people just not observe the difference?

Or depending on context, you could say 'the average person', 'hard working tax payers', 'most people', 'people on average wage' .....

The American definition of 'middle class' is totally different to what it means here.

In the US, 'middle class' = normal, average person, not rich, not poor, just the average Joe.

The UK meaning (or the way it's commonly used, at least) would be more like 'upper middle class' in the US. Comfortable, nice lifestyle, holidays abroad, etc.

It's also massively tied to things like background, education and even accent here, not just income. Someone who went to private school and is well spoken is always going to be considered middle class, even if they're working a minimum wage job.

Yes this.

I'm British born and raised and I don't understand the 'nuances' of the class system. Mainly because its a load of shit.

Where do "landed gentry" fit in? I thought they were above Upper class, distinguished by their titles and stately homes. Yet PPs have said that's Upper class?

Class is not tied to income, basically. If you talk about class you're talking about family background, education, layers on layers of historical/cultural stuff. Low/middle/high income is a way better descriptor.

“Normal people” seems to be the phrase you are looking for.

The first group in the OP is working class. The second is middle class.
Those on benefits are the working poor or poor/disabled.
Upper class are those who are rich enough to have financial independence/not ever need to work.

I'd agree to not mention class ever. I forget the expression but it goes like, the British class system is where no one says anything but everyone knows everything.

I think it is possible to get the British class system as a foreigner but you probably have to marry a Brit to figure it out and be on mn a lot. That is me.

Already been said, but the term middle class is irritating and is too widely applied. It can also be used in a derogatory way to suggest smugness. Maybe just say ‘ordinary people’ to distinguish the vast majority from those who don’t have to worry about money.

The class thing exists but very blurred edges with working and middle class.
Technically working class means manual or unskilled worker, So trade's people, shop staff, secretarial staff, hairdresser, factory workers, "blue collar" as in wears overalls is another term you'll hear.

Middle class technically means professional jobs degree educated, teachers, lawyers, doctors, management roles, sometimes referred to as "white collar" as in wears a shirt and suit. Which could include car sales men.

Politician's and reporters tend to forget class and refer to income levels.
"Fixed income" means benefits or pension.
"Low income" struggles to make ends meet. Minimum wages, relying on top-up benefits. Working poor.
"Middle income" people who aren't on any benefits, doing just OK,
"Higher earners" those in Higher tax brackets.

Most people in the uk don’t refer to people in terms of class in my experience

It's to do with our history. We had a huge working class. These would be the vast majority of people working in what was known as the industrial districts, in mines, mills, factories and so on. The unskilled and semi-skilled working class but this also included clerks, teachers, the police an so on.

The middle class was quite small and the upper class smaller again. No one really knows much about the upper class because they just live in some old crumbly castle place and we never get to meet them but see them in magazines in a doctors waiting room maybe. Although personally, being from a very working class area, I don't think I've ever met anyone middle class in person in a social setting either, apart from once or twice briefly. Oh and on MN of course

All this history has stayed with us, so middle class still means a professional, a lawyer, doctor and so on and everyone else is working class. Someone who is is dire financial need is poor, in poverty

...a word i prefer is everyday people, instead of ordinary people. Seems more polite

My DM (privately educated, colonial born, professional) used to refer to middle (or upper middle) class people as “PLU” short for “People Like Us”!

However I’d go along with the posters who say that the middle class is very broad and nebulous. At one end you’ve got the aspiring types who wouldn’t dream of private education for their children but take holidays abroad and put a coaster under their drinks and send their children to activities, at the other you’ve got those for whom private education is a given, take more than one holiday abroad a year (probably including skiing) and have inherited silver.

But don’t worry to much OP - if there’s one thing to know it’s that it’s very unclassy to talk about how classy you are!

@Flaxmeadow teachers and police are regarded as Professionals and therefore middle class occupations. Teachers are degree educated that was beyond the lowly working classes.
Working classes did apprenticeships and maybe local college not uni.

Army officers are also regarded as middle class occupations but Private soldiers are working class.

Because what you should be saying is the cost of living crisis is really hitting the working class now.

Two things you need to remember
1.People here are generally proud of being working class or of coming from a working class background

1. The middle class will try to tell you, and they tell us all the time, that class does not exist or that it doesn't exist anymore. This is a tactic of class war. Yes that must sound alarming, I know, but this denial of class is part guilt and part fear. Guilt because of their middle class privilege and fear of what the 'mob' might do, like use our democratic right to vote in an election or something outrageous like that. We don't know whats good for us you see. Denying class exists is cognitive dissonance and very convenient when you're middle class, especially if you can convince others it doesn't too

I'm being a bit mischievous but still

Well teachers are now considered middle class professionals but up until quite recently they lived on council estates and were not as highly paid. Forty years ago over 70% of the population of England lived in rented council housing and many others in private rented. This is why I started my post with 'Its to do with our history'

Because what you should be saying is the cost of living crisis is really hitting the working class now

I wouldn't put class in that sentence.
The cost of living crisis is really hitting the Middle and Higher earners. (It's already hit the Fixed income and Lower earners)

Some 'working class' trades people will be earning far more than some 'Middle class' professionals.

Class is very messy because it really doesn't relate to income as much as you think.

E.g. I was brought up as the child of a policeman and a teaching assistant. We had really almost no money for a not insignificant portion of my childhood. I always knew we really didn't have money and it really impacted my life choices. At first glance you might well think I would be working class from that description, but there's just no question that I'm middle class in reality.

My parents are Oxbridge graduates, both of whom grew up in homes with plenty of money. Their parents gave them a lump of cash when they were thirty ish which enabled them to buy a bigger house. The radio station of choice was radio 4 and the quiz show was university challenge, before the internet was really a thing I counted and we had 20 different dictionaries - English, Latin, Spanish, French, chemistry, physics, Quotes, philosophy - and more I can't remember any longer. My grandparents took me to the ballet, and the free museum visits were a total cornerstone of my childhood. We went to the library all the time and I read 20 books a week. We did have inherited silver and my brother was given a silver pocket watch as a christening gift by his godfather. My granny paid for me to learn to ride, and my other granny paid for my school shoes so I always looked smart. I was taught how black tie dress codes and cutlery and passing the port before I went off to university.

When I went to university I was friends with a girl who had a massive house in London with a basement cinema, and a chalet in Switzerland. She'd been to the best girls school in London and her mum had a practice on Harley Street. We later discovered we were collectively known as "posh and posher". Now I would argue that the lack of money in my upbringing rules out any risk of being posh, but what I think it illustrates is how complicated class is because as a student at university there was then no illustration of the lack of cash we'd had when I was growing up so people's perceptions were influenced only by what I guess you'd call my cultural capital - and I might have been lacking in actual capital but my background was such that the assumption was that I did have actual as well as cultural capital.

None of it Matters so to speak, but it is definitely a weird and nuanced British thing - I go along to a job and do the same job as an adult as loads of other people. I couldn't afford not to work for my living and I don't have a massive house or a swanky car.

I think you mean something like the "squeezed middle" which somehow I don't think is the same as the middle classes, or middle income.

I would say in all likelihood both the families described in your OP are middle class but that it would depend on the cultural factors.

In what way is it hitting the middle class? One car instead of two, three less holidays a year, second homes?

Or food, heating, bills, washing machine, cooker, fridge replacement. That kind of thing?

To me this is no better than trying to understand where people's skin colours fit in society. I mean maybe talking about different classes might actually help breakdown classism. Somehow though as usual I think this conversation might just end up putting people in stereotypical boxes filled with judgement and discrimination from others.

You nailed it! 😂

The same way as it affects lower incomes. You are mistaking middle incomes the people who are earning a good wage but not on top-up benefits or paying higher rate tax, for the really high earners.
Interest rates have gone up, food and energy prices will be eating into their disposable income. That means cutting back on luxuries eating out, big holidays looking where they can make savings.
Even some who are higher earners with big mortgages and other debts will be feeling it.
Few, other than the really rich, can tolerate their essentials bills doubling without making savings elsewhere.

I would say you are born into a class and a high paying job doesn't bump you up a class. Your money doesn't change your class in the UK. It would bump up or down your children. For example if you were born into a working class blue collar parents in a council property but you end up going to oxbridge and getting a fancy job like a surgeon or lawyer and you own a house, your children would be born into middle class. They might go to private schools or very good state schools because good schools catchments tend to be very expensive properties. So your neighbours are also largely middle class. Your children's friends are middle class. So it's the environment you grew up in which, if it were middle class, happens to be advantageous and generally leads to better paid jobs and more highbrow interests by association.

I don't think it's necessarily wrong to say the middle classes aren't impacted because they are rich. Because a. not all of them are rich and b. some middle class jobs were/are still impacted by Covid, for example classical concert musicians and restauranteurs. Some working class families might have had more work opportunities, not less. For example lorry drivers, grocery workers, carers, nurses.

How many times does this question need to be asked?

OP do a search you will find hundreds of posters have asked the same question.

Surely middle class in an area where the ave house is worth 1 mill is not the same as middle class where the ave house is 200,000