To have no clue how to refer to "average people" in this country

[missingmiddle]

I'm new to the UK and I am really struggling with understanding what people mean by "middle class" here.

To me it means - an average family, house in the suburbs, commuting to a boring suburban job, maybe accountants or teachers with kids in state schools or maybe a smart kid on a scholarship. Not struggling too hard to pay the bills and not on benefits (aside from perhaps the wide-ranging ones like child tax credits) but they're expecting to take all 30 years to pay off the mortgage. Enjoy going camping, cinema, dinners with friends etc

In the UK it seems to mean - City professionals/lawyers/bankers who shop at Waitrose and go to the opera and take multiple foreign holidays a year. Children at private/public school, skiing and piano lessons... To me this is upper middle class.

I suppose here the first family is called "working class" but then so are families who are really struggling with money? Do British people just not observe the difference?

I just keep going around in circles with people because I'm clearly using the wrong terminology.

Why do you need to pigeon hole people? Can't you just take people for who they are?

BTW, I love opera, take multiple holidays each year, I sometimes shop at Waitrose and I am not remotely in one of your categories of workers. It's kind of patronising and insulting to make such generalised comments ....

Rightly or wrongly the tabloids often use underclass as a euphemism. I guess umemployed or long term benefits claimant might be other terms that are used.... it's not clear cut.

DP is from a working class background and very much identifies as working class. Even whilst admitting that he loves a very middle class life. It's a bit of an identity crisis for him in some ways

As a non-Brit long resident in the UK I know exactly what you mean. Don't get misled into thinking class matters less here, the opposite is true.

'Middle-class' is a polemical term in the UK. People who in many other places would unproblematically consider themselves middle class may use the term contemptuously, either to denounce perceived privilege ( as in your example), or to describe an opportunity-hoarding, status-anxious, conformist mindset practised by people with varying economic means.

I think it's a function of the fact that there is so much ingrained privilege here, accompanied by constant political declarations in favour of meritocracy - heartfelt if naive from some Labour politicians, totally cynical coming from conservatives.

There is no good way to talk about class in the UK. The subject is always toxic. But I recommend two texts: George Orwell's afterword to his 'Road to Wigan pier' where he explains his socialism as a consequence of his - wait for it- lower upper middle class upbringing ( and the term makes sense). And G Steadman Jones, Languages of class; partly behind the times but still very perceptive.

Message me if you come up with a more optimistic take...

I think generally speaking people use 'middle class' to mean not obviously working class or upper class.

If you want to be more specific you would have to use a different term. It might be 'civil servants' it might be 'squeezed middle' it might be 'upper middle class' or 'professional classes'. Unfortunately the British class system is so nuanced I can imagine that unless you are a native, it is a never going to be totally clear.

This is exactly how I feel!
I actually have a copy of Road to Wigan Pier (unread so far) - will check out both these This really is a minefield!

At work we use the term ‘Low SES’ (socioeconomic status) to describe ‘poor’ people. It is sometimes important to categorise people as their background and their current situation can have a huge impact on where they are now and their ability to change.

But you're trying to comment about income, no? You're talking about people whose income falls between, say the 20th and 70th percentile on income. Does it matter if they earn that income as a plumber or as a vicar, or whether they have ever had a riding lesson? The bills are the bills.

Born and bred in the UK and at the age of 35 I am yet to use a sentence that involves speaking about people's 'class'. Not me, nor any of my family or friends speak of anything that involves talking about class. It's not something that the majority of us Brita speak about nor even think about so I honestly wouldn't worry about knowing the difference nor would I even be mentioning it as part of a conversation.

No-one in the UK talks about class. Just don't do it. What's the need? The terms are laden with so much history and nuanced context that it's hard for non Brits to get it. I'm British and never refer to people by their 'class' it just isn't done, and you'd almost always get it wrong and insult someone if you tried to figure out or assign a class. Just don't mention it. There really is no need.

In what context do you think you need to refer to class OP? I'm struggling to think when you think it would be a helpful concept to bring up.in conversation?

Class is really tricky in the UK. I was born into a working class family but through education have ended up with a professional job and living the sort of middle class family life you describe so I don't quite fit in either group. I have expensive taste in cars, wine, food and interiors and outdoor gear (which I can afford) but an unashamed bargain hunter streak for many things that might be less middle class. All inclusive holidays, caravan parks, Asda, sugar in my tea (a lot of my middle class colleagues are horrified by this), markets, cheap clothes etc. My kids do lots of extra curricular clubs but play out in the street with friends which seems frowned up by the middle class school Mum's. All I can tell you is I can pass for either but would be like a fish out of water in an upper class setting.

Mmm, so do remember op that in Britain income and class do not necessarily align. A plumber on £100k may well be considered ‘working class’, whilst a criminal law barrister earning sod all is likely to be considered ‘middle class’. Unless you are specifically meaning to reference class, which can be a minefield, I would suggest referring to income brackets instead.

I think your description of middle class the first family is correct. Guess it depends, if your in london maybe it’s slightly different.

i also think middle class is split into a higher and lower tier, the people really well off vs comfortable

Does it really matter?

The traditional class distinctions are basically meaningless in the modern world.

Here you are OP - a handy list:

Upper class - often titled, come from a background of considerable inherited wealth, castles and huge stately homes, probably distant connection to royal family somewhere in their family tree. Private schooling as a matter of course, tend to be patrons of charities, influential, powerful in business, friends in high places.

Middle class - very comfortably off, decent sized houses, no financial worries, often send their children to private school, senior professional/managerial occupations.

Working class - everybody else.

Just waiting now for someone to say the phrases “new money” and “old money”!

Yes basically it’s very confusing. My DH grew up going on holidays abroad and his parents house is worth around £700k. I grew up on a council estate and only went abroad once as a child. My parents were not well off. But I am generally more middle class than my husband because my parents were both university educated, had professional jobs and we had a lot of “cultural capital” growing up even though we didn’t have much money, whereas he was and still is the only member of his whole extended family to go to university and they mostly work in manual or clerical jobs rather than professional/white collar.

So yeah it’s very complicated. I’d just give up OP 😂

I share your pain, OP, except no way over my dead body will I start reading books about it all. Ugh. I suggest "ordinary" is the word you're after.

what ARE the euphemisms for poor then?

Try "low income households"

My husband is also in firm denial that we are MC, insists we are WC.

Middle classes are those in the professions, Solicitors, Doctors, Architects etc, high ranking military officers, and people who own businesses employing many people.

This has come about because previously professional jobs (teacher, lawyer etc) we’re better paid than more manual or physical jobs even if they involved being highly skilled (carpenter, blacksmith etc). But now teachers starting salaries aren’t much more than £20k (with a shedload of student loan in tow) whereas it seems like the hourly rate for a plasterer/plumber/electrician is now equivalent to about 5 times that!

Class is an outdated concept which snobs use to make themselves feel like they’re better than everybody else and successful in life, basically.

Is it fair to say that "middle-income" would be a less loaded way to say what I mean?

I understand the urge to not label people but if you're going to have a conversation about which sorts of people are going to be most affected by the cost of living crisis (for example) I think it's useful to have a term for "normal families" which excludes VPs at investment banks!

Middle-income isn't perfect because it only encompasses one part of their financial situation (savings, paid off house, inheritance etc could all affect it) but at least it doesn't seem to have the cultural aspects mixed in?

In England Class does not correlate well with income at all. One can be upper class and totally broke or working class and worth millions

its a loose grouping of income, occupation, parents occupation, school attended, language and slang used, hobbies and taste and loads more

kate Fox’s “watching the English” is great if you care - but you really don’t have to.

refer to “middle income bracket” or something similar

OK it's actually really easy.

What's in their living room?

Upper middle class - inherited heirloom Indian rug
Middle class - vintage travel poster on a picture rail
Upper working class - some kind of glitter encrusted diamanté silver furry cushion from b&m
Lower working class - inherited heirloom rug, but it's a glitter diamanté furry rug from whatever was the equivalent of b&m 10 years ago

Is it fair to say that "middle-income" would be a less loaded way to say what I mean?

Yes! 👍

Is it fair to say that "middle-income" would be a less loaded way to say what I mean?

Yes! 👍