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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Nursing should be re-named?

544 replies

SunshinePie · 02/06/2022 17:42

Was pondering over this recently, is calling “nursing” is a bit old fashioned? You now need a degree to be a nurse, and they often are pretty much doing junior doctor jobs. Calling it something else that recognises it’s academic demands, and also more inclusive to males wanting to work in the field…something like Healthcare Medic / Healthcare Practitioner/ Assistant Medic…. Or similar, you get the idea….

-YABU, it should be kept “nurse”, it’s traditional and has roots in “nursing an infant” ie breastfeeding (that reflects the caring nature)

-YANBU it’s old fashioned, insulting to people with degrees and esp males.

OP posts:
Hollipolly · 03/06/2022 10:25

@Perplexed0522 oh I know you wasn't saying HCA are not capable I'm simply agreeing with you that they are allowed to do an awful lot of things. Ultimately there's only 1 person with a pin and that person is the one who stand before the NMC should it all go wrong.

Your taking me back to plotting obs on the graph... in adults HCAs are or were allowed to do this and the RN would have to countersign anything over 3. But you could have a BP over 180 and it doesn't score on Mews.

I don't blame the nurses as they simply don't have time however I fail to see why there's such a divide and a nasty undertone about titles on this thread and IRL.

HelpIneedsomebodywontyouplease · 03/06/2022 10:25

@Perplexed0522 it was from both. Nurses gave me daily injections & any medication, occasional BP, removed catheter. HCA emptied urine bag & dipped daily, did temp, BP (initially every hr for 24 hrs) & it was actually the HCA that drew around the growing red patch with biro at the site of the cannula in my hand. I did see the nurse glance at it with a side eye as she changed my drip bag but, even though the redness had grown beyond the biro line, she acted like she didn’t even see it and walked off as soon as she’d hooked me up to a new drip!

Perplexed0522 · 03/06/2022 10:37

OddsandSods · 03/06/2022 10:23

Oh and the few arguing that nurses can’t or won’t give complex updates on treatment, progress, prognosis have obviously never met a clinical nurse specialist. In ‘my day’ on the wards we did give all of that information, so what has changed? I think this reflects a couple of things. Ward nurses are so run ragged nowadays delivering complex care / tasks they don’t have enough time to devote to understanding patient pathways or practice delivering difficult news. The other is wards are mostly staffed by the most junior nurses, the hospitals choose to pay ward nurses the most junior salaries and the seniors have so many other options to move onto. Ward work is physically hard and the shifts are a killer so people tend to move away from ward work as soon as they can.

I agree with so much of this.

When I was training, about 15 years ago, it was a huge deal to be a Sister, it was a title that you earned from having years and years of knowledge and experience and an understanding of how to manage a team, whereas now you can be a Sister after only being qualified for two years.

What that results in is very junior staff taking responsibility of a unit and being classed as more senior than the ward nurses who who’ve probably been qualified for 20 more years than the Sister.

And it’s very difficult when the Sister does not have the knowledge, skills or experience to manage complex situations and so it is the more experienced ward nurses who deal with it.

Working on a ward is hard work and I agree that a lot of staff want to go in to a speciality for those reasons, and then like you say, the ward is being staffed by very junior and inexperienced nurses.

I did Ward Nursing for 15 years until I finally said that I just couldn’t do it anymore. It’s exhausting and demoralising at times.

Being a ward nurse can be amazing, it’s a privilege and it’s meaningful, but staff shortages and raised expectations mean morale is at an all time low and my experience is that most ward nurses are slowly breaking under the pressures.

Perplexed0522 · 03/06/2022 10:45

HelpIneedsomebodywontyouplease · 03/06/2022 10:25

@Perplexed0522 it was from both. Nurses gave me daily injections & any medication, occasional BP, removed catheter. HCA emptied urine bag & dipped daily, did temp, BP (initially every hr for 24 hrs) & it was actually the HCA that drew around the growing red patch with biro at the site of the cannula in my hand. I did see the nurse glance at it with a side eye as she changed my drip bag but, even though the redness had grown beyond the biro line, she acted like she didn’t even see it and walked off as soon as she’d hooked me up to a new drip!

I really hope in adult settings, where the HCAs can take on this level of care, that they are acknowledged and appreciated for their skills and patient involvement.

As has been said, there are perceived hierarchies on hospital wards and I imagine that HCAs aren’t recognised as much as they should be. It’s not right. Especially when you can get some really shitty care from some nurses too.

OrlandointheWilderness · 03/06/2022 11:01

Its not a competition- doctors and nurses are equally important, valued members of the team. Both are integral to it and both needed. Nurses hold degrees and some are extensively educated, and obviously doctors are educated to an incredibly high degree.
How about we all support each other?!

Perplexed0522 · 03/06/2022 11:11

OrlandointheWilderness · 03/06/2022 11:01

Its not a competition- doctors and nurses are equally important, valued members of the team. Both are integral to it and both needed. Nurses hold degrees and some are extensively educated, and obviously doctors are educated to an incredibly high degree.
How about we all support each other?!

Sums it up perfectly!

BreakAwayTime · 03/06/2022 11:18

FY1s obviously require a little bit of guidance in the initial stages of a rotation. It’s a new environment. Some then flourish, some might struggle with that particular rotation. Being thrust into a new environment every few months would be difficult for anyone. They have extensive education and underpinning knowledge but they’re still learning to apply that vast amount of information into clinical practice on rotations.

Similarly, when nurses try to work in an ambulance service a huge number struggle to cope with the physicality and autonomy that Paramedics are used to, with many unable to successfully pass a bespoke prehospital ambulance nurse course. When Paramedics make the move to primary care in a GP surgery or move into hospital work they will excel at some aspects and need additional guidance for others. Little things like which vials to use and in which order to take bloods for example. Not a clue!

I’ve had more ED nurses be dismissive and ignorant towards me compared to ED doctors when I’ve brought patients in. GPs are becoming better now they understand how the role has shifted. Previously it was a nightmare trying to have a conversation with any GP. Now there are many more GPs open to discussing a patients care and we have a lot more access to different treatment pathways to keep people out of hospital.

Rather than making it a childish bun fight like this thread, recognise and acknowledge your own limitations, understand what others can bring and support each other. Its all human factors and non technical skills at play here. There appears to be a distinct lack of self-awareness displayed on this thread by both nurses and doctors.

BadNomad · 03/06/2022 11:46

It's a class system. Some people see it as doctors at the top, nurses (and PT, OTs, SLT) in the middle, HCAs and other support staff at the bottom. And like in every class system, each looks down on those below them, tries to rise themselves above the ones beside them, and wants to drag down those above them.

When it's not actually about who is more intelligent and more important. Everyone is an important cog in the system.

Hollipolly · 03/06/2022 11:55

@BadNomad its not class its rather crass. Doctors are well know to come from a certain life... so maybe that's why the nurses have far more hierarchy I mean for 30k or less a year! Unless you above a Band 5... no thanks! There's a lot of agencies you can work with as a HCA and earn very similar to a band 5.

Orangesox · 03/06/2022 11:56

This thread has descended into one of the most horrible, bitter threads I’ve seen on here in a long time. Genuinely, when did we get to this point where everyone in healthcare thinks that other roles have little to no value?

To answer OP’s question, no, I don’t believe nurses need new titles. But I do believe that the general public and clearly the rest of the healthcare profession would benefit from a better understanding of ALL healthcare roles and responsibilities.

For transparency sake, I’m a registered nurse. I was extremely academic, had a place to study medicine funded by the Royal Navy. Developed a life threatening latex allergy whilst volunteering in a nursing home and could not take up my place to study medicine as you cannot 100% avoid latex during university clinical rotation and FY1/FY1 (HO and SHO as it was then), and would not be eligible for military service. I was fortunate enough that after years of trying to enter the healthcare field, that a local university were willing to put the effort in to arrange placements to avoid latex exposure on an adult nursing degree, and the rest they say is history. I have a first class honours degree, PGDip and Masters. I take great offence at being told that myself and my peers aren’t the cream of the crop intellectually. Nursing and the Allied Health Professions frequently train adults who are entering their fields as parents, carers, second professions etc. The life experience that such individuals bring to the professions is what makes them so diverse and effective. Applying for medicine or graduate entry medicine is almost impossible once you’re into your mid to late 20s and beyond unless you are unencumbered, have plenty of money, support and time to essentially check out of adulthood for the 15 years or so of intense training you’re embarking on, and have had the ability to undertake lots of additional volunteering work or work as a HCA for instance. So many individuals, (mostly women who are negatively affected by being the default parent, having caring responsibilities, carrying the life admin) will enter other professions such as Nursing, Physiotherapy, Occupational Therapy, Dietetics etc, later in life, not because they’re stupid or “not the cream of the crop intellectually”, but because it’s an accessible way to train and qualify as a registered healthcare professional, and then continue to study in their chosen speciality.

I now work in a specialist public health field, and autonomously lead my service outside of the NHS. I retain the services of a physician who undertakes assessments which insurance companies and or regulators insist must be conducted by a physician. The physician I retain undertook his specialist training in the NHS, and was largely supported by clinical nurse specialists such as myself, and treats me with the same level of professional respect as I treat him. We work collaboratively as experts in our fields respectively. He openly admits that he wouldn’t have a clue how to do at least 75% of my role and are outside of his competency, and that without that 75%, he wouldn’t be able to effectively deliver the services that he is contracted to provide. Likewise, there are plenty of elements of his role that are outside my competency, and that is why I retain his services. Neither one of us is “better” than the other, or more clinically competent than the other. We are equals in our respective fields… as it should be. Interestingly enough though, if the shit hits the fan and our regulator comes in and sanctions us, or worse, if someone dies and it’s referred to the coroner, it’s me that’s held accountable on behalf of the business, not the physician I retain.

BadNomad · 03/06/2022 12:02

Hollipolly · 03/06/2022 11:55

@BadNomad its not class its rather crass. Doctors are well know to come from a certain life... so maybe that's why the nurses have far more hierarchy I mean for 30k or less a year! Unless you above a Band 5... no thanks! There's a lot of agencies you can work with as a HCA and earn very similar to a band 5.

I'm not talking about social class. I'm talking about the perceived hierarchy within a hospital. Social class isn't as big a thing within medicine anymore. Doctors and nurses come from all walks of life.

Hollipolly · 03/06/2022 12:08

Nurses do yes.. but I'm not sure I agree about the Doctors it's a lot less common.

lameasahorse · 03/06/2022 14:20

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Finallylostit · 03/06/2022 14:26

Assistant medics - seriously the hand maiden role went out a long time ago.

I work with a skilled team of professionals that includes physios, therapists, doctors, nurses, admin team, porters, cleaners etc

All have roles that are fundamental to caring for patients and not one exists without the other.

Somethings do not need changing - proud daughter, grand daughter, great grand daughter, niece and cousin of nurses, worked as a nursing assistant, now a doctor

lameasahorse · 03/06/2022 14:29

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Hollipolly · 03/06/2022 14:40

@lameasahorse why don't you become a Dr? Or are you a actually Dr?

Unfortunately some of the things and terms are above a nurse also so to claim you know all this is bollocks. Where did you learn all your medical knowledge? Your just one relative we can't base it upon you. People are generally speaking about the majority of relatives.

lameasahorse · 03/06/2022 14:56

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lameasahorse · 03/06/2022 14:57

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Topgub · 03/06/2022 15:06

@lameasahorse

You did say that nurses weren't capable.

When I said they were you said I was over inflating nurses experience

lameasahorse · 03/06/2022 15:09

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Topgub · 03/06/2022 15:12

@lameasahorse

Did you understand the answer?

If you understood, why wouldnt a nurse?

Hollipolly · 03/06/2022 15:20

Topgub · 03/06/2022 15:12

@lameasahorse

Did you understand the answer?

If you understood, why wouldnt a nurse?

Exactly. Tell us.

She has clearly stated a nurse couldn't update her sufficiently 🤣🤣🤣 eurghhh I know the type of relative she is....

lameasahorse · 03/06/2022 15:23

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BadNomad · 03/06/2022 15:35

@Topgub My god, for such an intelligent nurse, you don't seem to be able to understand what anyone else is saying.

@lameasahorse is not saying that nurses aren't smart enough to have medical knowledge, she's not saying nurses are incapable of understanding medical information, she's not saying nurses don't know as much as doctors.
She is saying that in the situations she is talking about, the nurses did not have the information she was asking about because, possibly, it was something the docs needed to explain themselves to then discuss the way forward.

For example, if the result of a test indicates cancer, then there will be questions surrounding that, and they should be answered by a doctor. It has nothing to do with nurses' intelligence. It doesn't mean nurses don't know anything about cancer. It is not your job to give that information first to patients or relatives.

Hollipolly · 03/06/2022 15:50

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Your over bearing its apparent... attending ward rounds as you stated yourself. I'm not a nurse... you think you know all. Whatever the Dr has told you.. the nurse WOULD know also VIA the doctor especially if it was cancer of terminal!!!

Or do you think the conversation between you and Dr the nurse doesn't need to know or already know. Honestly my God your hard work.

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