To ask IF this government have done enough to help aviation?

[mummsnetty]

With all the news of baggage issues, flights being cancelled, queues to check in and security the government response has been that they have done their bit.

Have they?

Did they but they should still do more now?

The govt is already massively supporting and investing in rail travel and has been doing for decades.

I think the airlines have shown themselves to be motivated purely by money throughout the whole pandemic.

They were going crazy during the peaks of Covid demanding that people fly all over the world without precautions.

No, they were asking for sensible precautions and no stupid rules such as 3 compulsory tests within a week at a cost of £100+ which went straight into the pockets of Boris's friends' wives. Tests that no one checked. Tests that more often than not weren't even posted on time, let alone analysed before the quarantine period was over.

They were asking for the government to adopt sensible rules and recognise all vaccination certificates, including those not issued by the NHS.

They were asking for an end to endless isolations for negatively-tested, vaccinated people returning from countries with less Covid, when the British public was free to take their mask off and attend mass events with not as much as an LFT required.

I'm no capitalist or fan of the airline business model. But most countries managed to avoid such chaos by running a good number of flights all throughout the pandemic, instead of at every step reacting late, reacting badly, and having their governments turn a blind eye to science, and to the needs of some industries.

I’m not at all misinformed thank you. The airline I worked for had made billions prior to Covid. It was perfectly healthy. They bought half the smaller airlines you mentioned

You manifestly are, I’m afraid. Your ire is directed at IAG (whose brands include BA and Iberia, for anyone who doesn’t recognise the name).

IAG’s net profit margin, on more than €25 Bn of revenue in 2019, was 6.7%. That really isn’t great. It might be “billions”, but what you don’t get is that businesses like IAG have to invest in infrastructure in order to operate and stay up to date. They aren’t giving “billions” to the board in bonuses, as you suggest. Nor does net profit translate directly to cash.

If you’d taken the time to look at the accounts, you’d see that IAG had more than €14 Bn in borrowings at the end of 2019, pre-pandemic. For a business of that size, cost savings really do count. You appear to be suggesting that IAG should have continued to carry high fixed costs, higher than its competitors, and that it wouldn’t have made any difference to its business or future prospects. It would. Things can change very quickly in the aviation and travel business - look at Thomas Cook - and a well-managed business prepares for the future by managing its cost base. Businesses are not run for the benefit of their staff, I’m afraid.

Businesses are not run for the benefit of their staff, I’m afraid.

That said, a failure to invest decently in the workforce as an important asset has backfired significantly on a number of businesses, not just in the travel sector. The idea that the workforce was invariably the first and easiest place for cost savings, and that staff would accept continual downgrading of conditions, was only ever going to work in an unconstrained labour market.

Find me an airline that has made £billion in a year?

Businesses are not run for the benefit of their staff, I’m afraid.

No they aren't, but this is a great lesson to 'leadership' that you treat the staff like shit at your peril.

The fact they all seem to be throwing their hands up in shock now that people who used to work for them have figured out that they can be paid more and not have to do ridiculous hours, and have decided not to come running back to be treated like shit again with even worse terms and conditions than they were on before (and that's not just airlines and airports, but other businesses such as Wetherspoons as well) just makes you wonder how completely blinded by profits they are.

Are the terms and conditions worse after the pandemic, i.e. have the Ts and Cs of employment been altered after the pandemic and solely as a consequence of it?

Some higher paid employees, e.g. pilots, accepted a pay cut during the pandemic, but have the terms also changed for the lower-paid roles, like ground staff and baggage handlers, post pandemic? If so, what changed?

@Iamthewombat
Yes, ts and cs have changed for the worse - less money, worse shift patterns, less staff to do the same work. Obviously I can't talk for all airlines, but this is my direct experience.

Yes, but for whom? Airline staff? If so, in which roles? Or airport staff, which is something different?

Airline - cabin crew, engineering, check in and more. Some roles that were in-house have been outsourced to agencies who are simply not retaining staff.
I can't speak for airport staff.

As a pp said, no,businesses are not run for the benefit of the staff, but lose staff respect and goodwill and the current aviation mess is the result.

Yes, I was that PP. I’m trying to gauge (1) whether the issues are with the airlines or the airport and (2) whether the changes to employees’ terms are directly as a result of the pandemic, not to be conflated with the steady cost reductions happening over the past 20+ years. Because the latter is our fault: the passengers (95% of us) who expect to fly on the cheap and who vote with our feet by choosing budget airlines.

Issues are definitely with the airlines, but that's not to say the airports aren't having some part in it, but I don't know any facts regarding airports.

Again, I can only speak for one airline, but the pandemic was used as an excuse to get rid of lucrative (to employees) legacy contracts and staff. This had long been in the pipeline, long before Covid was around, but had not been pushed through. During the pandemic staff were unable to fight back with industrial action and full advantage was taken. Now, whether that is due to lo cost flying I'm not sure, but I imagine it's partly to blame.

Would anyone like to have a go at predicting when this current chaos will reduce and it may be safe to go off on holidays again?

OK, so one airline and you acknowledge that that airline was already under pressure to reduce costs for the reasons already discussed on this thread: everyone wants cheap flights and expects airlines to provide them. So I’m not seeing a specific link with the pandemic.

Of course airlines will seek to reduce costs by altering employee contracts if they can. It’s a matter of staying in business. BA (for example) could continue to pay top dollar for its staff and offer them generous perks but unless there are enough customers willing to pay top dollar for flights, they’d be out of business within the year.

The government has finally responded. Airline executives have been invited by the Prime Minister to discuss a bailout for the airlines. The meeting is at 2pm on Monday 20th June.

RyanAir executives have been told to arrive in Downing Street at 10am to allow sufficient time to pass through security. The meeting is free of charge, but they can each bring a briefcase or other bag on payment of £20 in advance or £40 on the day. If their bag is slightly too big or too heavy they will have it taken from them and charged another £40 for this service. If they want to sit together in the meeting they will each have to pay £20 in order to do so. They will then find the meeting is actually at Chequers, 40 miles away and will have to pay £20 each way for the coach to get them there. Refreshments will be available at the meeting - CupASoups are £5, and sandwiches £10.

@jcyclops

Very good!!! And yet people still fly with this Irish outfit!

I think the airlines, in general, are all struggling to get their businesses up and running again from a virtual standstill. Many have substantial debts. The Uk as a whole has well over 1 million job vacancies. We cannot train people quickly enough and people now want to work at home. Airport working doesn’t fit in with what people want. So as there is a shortage of workers, we will
have to cut services or pay more. It won’t be a cheap flight economy again for a long time I think.