To ask IF this government have done enough to help aviation?

[mummsnetty]

With all the news of baggage issues, flights being cancelled, queues to check in and security the government response has been that they have done their bit.

Have they?

Did they but they should still do more now?

This would involve a huge societal change, because many industries depend on being able to move around the globe in order to make a profit. In my job you need to travel, or you lose your job. It employs millions annually - who is going to come up with an alternative industry for all these people, and what would those jobs be?

There’s a difference between avoiding your annual flight to Ibiza and giving up work. I fly 50-60 times a year - it’s that, or not being able to pay my bills.

Ok, let’s allow BA/IAG, Virgin, Jet2, EasyJet, TUI etc to ‘stand or fall on their own merits’ with no government support. Make them pay pack the furlough support. They are private companies after all. What happens then?

oh yeah, they all go out of business. That’s not just hard luck on anyone who likes going on holiday in the summer away from a drizzly island in the North Atlantic. It also means that the skilled jobs associated with aviation disappear from the U.K. Engineering, pilot jobs, development, parts suppliers, maintenance. Let’s see those all go offshore, eh? Then all that will be left will be the basic low paid ground staff or cabin crew roles. That will be great news for the economy in the north west, or Sussex, or anywhere else airlines fly out of.

I don’t think that anyone has suggested that airlines have always behaved perfectly but demanding that they be punished for everything that has happened during and since the pandemic feels short sighted.

@EileenGC

Societal change will be forced upon us, like it or not

We cant sustain things as they are.

If that costs jobs then it costs jobs

All though given the technology available now I'm not sure any role can claim they need to travel that much

There’s a difference between avoiding your annual flight to Ibiza and giving up work. I fly 50-60 times a year - it’s that, or not being able to pay my bills.

Alternatively you just find another job. You know ? The same way people who can't get a bus to their job are told to.

You do realise it's not all about you, don't you ?

Area around LGW is already struggling, and was even pre pandemic. Flew a few weeks ago via North terminal which had remained open throughout yet many food and shopping outlets were still hoarded off. Recently they announced they will resurface the main runway so use the temporary one, but did not take the opportunity while number of flights were reduced and income limited. Easyjet have no catering contract so limited drinks and snacks available. BA all but closed operations there and don't think they have yet resumed all routes despite South terminal also being open since April.

We always used Thompsondms, now Tui, until 5 years ago when they lied in their description of a hotel. They said it had an indoor pool and gym when it didn't. They offered us £80 compensation, which we accepted, but it took 6 months and complaints to Atol and Simon Calder to get them to pay out what they had promised. We then booked everything separately which worked well until covid. For our first break since then, we thought it would be safer to book a package as if there were problems we would have 1 company to deal with. We booked a week with Jet2, as they were praised by the way they handled the covid situation. We had our week in Portugal with no problems, flights near enough on time both ways. Since returning, virtually everyone I know has said that they have used Jet2 this year, for the same reasons. I think they are one company who will benefit greatly from the way they dealt with their customers over the last 2 years.

Well yes but the idea is to do it in a managed, controlled way.

If we ground airplanes now then a large part of society will grind to a halt.

Likewise at some point we want to stop pumping oil and gas out the North Sea but to just turn it off tomorrow would be pretty fucking stupid.

About half a million people are directly employed by aviation in the UK. Millions more will have jobs in the supply chain or will rely on aviation.

But sure, let's all just find other jobs overnight.

I thought the current issues were because the industry can't recruit to fill vacancies? So yes, the number of posts may fall but not necessarily the number employed.

It's happened in countless other industries anyway. Coal mining in UK used to employ almost a million people, now it's c. 1000. It dropped from 300k in 1980 to less than 50k in 1990. Those people didn't find new jobs overnight, in fact whole towns died as a result, but would you have the taxpayers subsidising those jobs forever?

No one's talking about closing aviation, only a contraction, which it seems it needs anyway to save it from itself.

If flying you 50 times a year was uneconomical for your employer, they'd find another way to operate.

Private companies who were forced to almost completely shut down their businesses were not being allowed to 'stand or fall on their own merits'. They were effectively bound and had the chair pulled from beneath them with very little warning. There was no way any business could have had the cash flow to survive that without help.

The 'help' they did receive was nowhere near enough to allow them to keep on staff indefinitely and survive. Furlough only covered part of salaries and there was still the huge costs involved in business admin and maintaining buildings, planes etc.

Easy to say "Don't fly" but apart from the millions of people in the world who depend on it for their livelihood , there are millions of people in the world, including me who have family scattered around the globe.
If they/I want to visit flying it is.

I mean come on you didn't have to be a strategic mastermind to realise that once restrictions were lifted, not only would travel go back to normal, but there would also be a lot of pent up demand from people who hasn't been able to travel for several years.

Frankly this entire situation is down to shitty short sighted management from the senior leaders of all the companies involved

And it's all very well saying "let them go bust" but people rely on aviation for some many reasons do that is incredibly short sighted.

History has shown that travel operators, hotels and airlines regularly go bust and other businesses grow or are created to take up the slack, i.e. the planes are leased to other firms, new buyers buy hotels, tour operators buy out the businesses of others, etc.

If, say, TUI went bankrupt today, their business, hotels, aircraft, etc wouldn't just disappear, they'd be bought/leased to other operators, most of their staff would be employed by other firms, etc etc.

Yes but not necessarily in the U.K. That’s the point. Skilled careers in the U.K. gone forever.

About half a million people are directly employed by aviation in the UK. Millions more will have jobs in the supply chain or will rely on aviation.

That's a drop in the ocean compared to the industries that disappeared overnight when horsepower hit the scrap heap.

If you are trying to convince me of anything, you need to bear in mind that several things I was told were "impossible" in 2019 have not only happened, but are now the norm. So either be more realistic in your definitions (never confuse "impossible" with "don't want to" for a start) or more detailed in your rebuttals.

If you want to talk about being dependent on entire industries, let's talk coal mining, steel and the 1980s, shall we ?

Folk have short memories it would seem @SerendipityJane

Although, to be fair, allowing those industries (or forcing them to) collapse was a disaster that we're still recovering from.

Whole towns who have never recovered.

Reducing air travel needs to happen.

Theres so much that needs to happen but I'm fucked if I know how we're ever going to achieve it when there is such selfish resistance

This.

Government shouldn't be doing anything to prop up the airline industry regardless. If they want to promote travel then they should invest and subsidise rail travel.

there are millions of people in the world, including me who have family scattered around the globe

Is there anyone who doesn't?

Although, to be fair, allowing those industries (or forcing them to) collapse was a disaster that we're still recovering from.

Shame no one did anything at the time ...

Aviation accounts for 7% of the UK's emissions. I've no qualms about seeing the industry cut down to size.

Now when can we start taxing kerosene?

There's certainly plenty of scope to reduce air travel. We really, really, don't need to be flying to the med for hen/stag weekends!

Totally the airlines fault. They wanted to cut costs and made staff redundant when they should have used the furlough scheme more. Now they have all got other jobs and they are screwed. Serves them right.

The airlines sold off planes and sacked staff. Getting new pilots ready to fly takes time. Getting new airport staff security checked takes time. I hate the current government but this not their fault. This is the industry’s fault and responsibility.

However, you, and every bugger else flying all over the place for holidays are BVU as you are contributing massively to the climate emergency which is already responsible for many deaths and much suffering and will get worse and worse if we continue in this fashion.

And? Sounds like that’s a ‘you’ problem to me. Not up to me and other taxpayers to subsidise your family’s choices.