Divorced/moved out dads not paying for our children

[FloatyFairy18]

Do any of you have to go through the same as me here... my ex I caught having an affair so kicked him out and divorced him after giving him two chances, which he blew. He subsequently re-married and had another child to add to his now four kids from three different women, latest one already also having two kids of her own

In the Divorce Decree Nisi + Decree Absolut it was cited he had to pay a certain amount for both children until they were 18, he did this for a few years then stopped paying the full amount so I had to get the ludicrously outdated very sexist old fashioned still believing women stay at home being housewives men go out to work nonsense of the CSA at the time, now CMS - he then had a run in with his work and is refusing to work any more making out he can't due to a medical condition (which is all on show for when he leaves the house, but not any other time) and so is on benefits now = so that the CMS can't touch him

Morally he should be paying, he signed the Divorce papers to say so, but some lawyer told me because I had to get CMS involved that wipes out any Divorce payments he is supposed to make for the children

Is this right?

I have tried all sorts of means of getting this sorted but come to a blocked wall each and every time as the government seem blind to what is going on and just by thinking "oh we get child benefits, that will suffice" ... no no no!!! These dads should be paying for their kids no matter what

How can I get him to backpay what he owes (£23K) and going forward to pay monthly what he is meant to be paying without getting solicitors/greedy lawyers/courts involved

These are his children too, why is it expected by him and the government and CMS that I am to somehow find money to clothe, feed, keep them warm general day to day expenses, they live with me but see him every other weekend and 4 weeks holiday periods but he didn't even want that, it is only because child custody had to set things in stone that we had to go down this route thank you to his controlling money grabbing greedy wife, at his all he does is tell them he is paying for them when all he does is spending money on "treats" like sweets/toys/games for the Xbox rubbish etc, but point blankly refuses to pay towards raising them

I know of many "dads" who try to fiddle the system, either claiming they are on minimum wage, can't pay this or that, but paying themselves a lot more whilst living a very nice lifestyle without the CMS knowing, same as my ex who has been on three 10-day holidays abroad in the past 7 months and about to go on another one! I also know of millionaires who have done this to avoid paying for their own children, what is it with these guys that they have a grudge against paying their ex-wives/partners for their own children

I really believe a huge campaign needs to be started her - it needs a petition to go to The Houses of Parliament, we need a massive backing here, the Family Law needs to be changed, the Child Maintenance System NEEDS to be updated urgently and change to benefit us mums, they are so one-sided favouring the dads still, it is ludicrous and most importantly of all a minimum amount of money needs to be set by law that these dads MUST pay each month PLUS THEY MUST PAY IN A CERTAIN SHORT TIME-FRAME ALL THE MONEY THEY OWE IN BACK-PAYMENTS

Who is in to help me here???

Quite true unfortunately, I’ve been there and does feel unfair when you’ve gone into it as a joint venture and then left hosting the party mainly on your own :( Its frustrating too when the ex says he can’t because of his job, as if it’s any easier for you when in fact you are having to plan your whole life/career around available childcare. I’ve been there.
It’s a difficult situation to sort as sometimes it’s just not practical to do 50/50 as it relies on people staying in the same location etc too which is quite a big ask when a couple would usually have the freedom to move around but on the other hand it would be difficult for most average earning NRP to cover their own household and 50% of the accommodation, bills, food etc for a child whereas the RP either earns a good salary or will receive UC top ups or has a new partner. So that’s just not going to be a realistic arrangement for most separated couples e.g a NRP and RP both earning 40k, the RP is effectively £1200 a month tax free better off than the EoW parent (RP not paying £500 a month and receiving £500 pcm plus CB) so if you were to take any more of the NRP it would likely be quite unfair as they would be living in quite reduced circumstances in comparison to the RP and that wouldn’t be fair. Whereas seems more than a few RPs seem to have the expectation that the NRP contribution should cover 50% of what they spend on the child, a) the NRP doesn’t have an influence on what they spend so that isn’t really a fair figure, they could be paying the mortgage on a house in the best part of town and taking them to Disney land every year. Plus many RP seem to forget the economy of scale they benefit from, EOW will still need room for the children which then sits empty for most of the month.
So the happy medium has ended up being the CMS rate which takes a significant portion of income but not a level which would put the NRP in destitution.
Yes I was once paying more in childcare than received in maintenance (let alone all the other costs related to dc) and not entitled to UC due to being with a new partner (we were at stage where paying our own bills separately) so was very hard but then now much better off dc older and not paying childcare and the maintenance covers more than 50% of dcs essentials so it does tend to even out over the years when it comes to the childcare. I just never assumed we’d always have the money for the extras that maintenance enabled as ex quite entitled to give up job tomorrow and we took that into account too when taking out the mortgage etc.

I don't understand your maths. How is the RP 1200 better off? They are might have £500 more in the bank in your example but they also have to spend that on the childrens' food, school lunches, bus fares, uniforms, other clothes, activities, phone contracts, pocket money. A trip to the cinema can be £50 - hardly an extravagant outing or outlandish activity but £50. The CB is not huge and again, is more than accounted for by the various outlays required which the NRP has none or very few of. I haven't counted mortgage or utlitites as I agree they may not be too dissimilar, though the NRP doesn't have to live in school catchments. the biggest difference though, as I have said repeatedly is that the NRP is much more able to go and earn MORE than the 40k in your example whereas the RP simply does not have that option given the need to be present at home until say 7.30 am and by 6.30pm. Even with older kids they need some parenting, some presence, that an EOW NRP simply does not have to factor in. Younger ones need paid for childcare that at 40k will not be partially covered by UC and could be over 1k a month. Can you honestly argue that it is fair for a RP to cover that all themselves?

I agree with you @ChiselandBits.

I'm in the very fortunate position of being a high earner, so can cover all my DC costs and more without EXDP's contribution, so I don't rely on it, however the vast majority of RP's, usually women, are not in that position.

Relying on UC, child benefit, tax credits etc, then your EX not contributing fully to DC is a rubbish situation for women to be in. If the government would bother to prioritise the issue and make it fairer by forcing appropriate deductions straight from the NRP's work or bank account it would go some way to redressing the balance. They won't do that though.

Its frustrating too when the ex says he can’t because of his job, as if it’s any easier for you when in fact you are having to plan your whole life/career around available childcare

usually the precedent is set during the relationship. Kids come along, and the man’s career is prioritised, with the mum going pt/sah and shouldering the bulk of the childcare.

another reason I hate this “my salary doesn’t cover the nursery fees” thing. It’s a joint cost. Also why I never gave up work- it should be a choice but I don’t think many couples think it through as to what would happen should they split.

my brother was absolutely prepared to go pt and 50:50. His ex refused as it would have meant no maintenance and she wasn’t willing to up her work hours to compensate.

the norm needs to be an expectation for dads to step up to parenting and stop prioritising their careers, unless it is a joint decision where both parties know the consequences. They still get to opt out of the wifework right from the start.

Younger ones need paid for childcare that at 40k will not be partially covered by UC and could be over 1k a month. Can you honestly argue that it is fair for a RP to cover that all themselves?

yet so many women give up work because their salary doesn’t cover childcare. It should be seen as a joint cost right from the start and continued post split.

It is outrageous. If he owed money to bank or the taxman there would be no such fucking around. It’s discrimination, 9/10 it is women left to pick up the pieces. If it were men you could be sure they would put a stop to it. -

They would take a token amount....what he could afford

Nobody can force it. If taken to court for non payment then payment plans are drawn up....could be £1 a week....there's nothing you can do if he doesn't have it

It's dreadful. My ex has recently started not paying until he gets a text to ask for it. Cms won't do anything. It's abuse, simple as abuse. He claims his new wife is too busy to pay it, out, at work etc. His behaviour is disgusting and I hate him for it

So I’ve worked out an exact example using entitled to and CMS calculators

Jill and Jack separate and have 2 children, a boy and a girl aged 3 and 8, Jack has the children EOW and half of all school holidays. They both work 37.5 hours a week earn 40k but both pay 9% into work place pension

Jill’s income
£2304 net salary
£1471 universal credit and child benefit
£414 maintenance
Total - £4189 — £1191 childcare costs
=£2998 — rent and council tax of £900 per month
= £2098 - food and all expenses

food £300 pcm
gas and electric and water £250pcm
clothes, shoes, school dinners and misc for children £200
swimming lessons and beavers £75pcm
Days out/holidays and celebrations £200pcm

£1025 - bills, food and child related expenses (excluding childcare)

Jill’s remaining income - £1073

Jacks income
£2304- 414 = £1890
Jack is able to rent a smaller 3 bedroom house given kids not there all the time
-£800 rent and council tax = £1090 food and all expenses

food £200pcm
utility bills £150
Days out and holidays and celebrating £200pcm
clothes etc for kids £80pcm

Jacks remaining income £460 (which like Jill’s needs to cover commuting costs etc)

Noted I have included lots of nice extras for the children in the calculations (sorts of thing we as a couple haven’t even been able to often afford for our children) so these kids are having a fairly comfortable standard of living. Note also when the children are not in school/nursery they are actually with both parents for equal amount of days so days out, holidays and birthdays etc will be approximately the same. The 3 year old will receive meals at nursery and the 8 year old snacks at wrap around care so impacting on food costs at home. Things like beds etc have to be bought by both sets of parents but yes maybe a bit of extra wear and tear at Jill’s. Both sets of parents effectively have as many free days except yes Jill has the hours between 7-8am and 6-8pm undertaking childcare during the week and extra night calls.

I am writing this as someone who had been a single mother so has been the one to do all these extras, had to schedule my career around having kids, undertake complicated childcare arrangements as I actually worked shifts so I know the struggle is real but what you don’t seem to get is that Jack isn’t wildly better off all things considered and in my option those who would want to try and wring even more out of him and say the CMS rate isn’t enough and you want to start a campaign to put them in prison or whatever are not being fair.
I as a mother and woman wouldn’t support that at all and I wouldn’t want my sons to be treated like that.
For those of you who are not receiving what you should actually be entitled to due to non payment of CMS award, hiding of income etc that is a totally different issue and yes I would support you

how is she getting £1471 UC on a 40k salary? I'm not entitled to any CTC on less than that. That would cover childcare plus £300 so I would be v v surprised if that was correct. Take that out of the equation and the figures look very different. You are also still ignoring the fact that Jack can, if he wishes, go and get a few shifts a week in a pub, or nightshift work / overtime, which Jill cannot. Who does INSET days? Sick days? Can Jill do a 3/4 overseas work trip without loads of notice and support? As he doesn't have the children living with him, it is also easier for him to contemplate co-habiting and splitting bills with a new partner than the RP, who if they have anything about them, would be very wary of doing this as the main carer.

I'd say £200 for kids lunches and misc is low, as is £300 for food, especially as they get older and need phone contracts, money to go out with friends etc plus clubs and activities at anything from £20 - 50 pm depending on what they do, though I accept the childcare bit would fall away at that point. If the kids are with Jill all but EOW in term time, she is paying for all school lunches, bus fares, uniform etc. The £414 does not come close to 50% of those costs if you took them over a year factoring in shoes etc which are not an every month expense but can run into hundreds as they get older and also need football boots or other sports equipment. I am not trying to "wring more out" of an NRP no matter what but the current status quo, even when it is paid properly is simply not a fair division - and I say again, I would gladly forgo ANY maintenance if my ex did 50/50 - he simply doesn't want to.

Go to entitledto.co.uk and put in

yearly salary 40000
£3600 pension payments
£275 a week childcare
2 children
£800 a month rent
band A council tax

poor Jack not only does he work full time and have the children virtually an equal number of non school days to Jill, he is £600 a month worth off than Jill after essentials and generous child related expenses have been taken into account and you still want him to do a second job on top to give Jill even more money.
Most children don’t live that far from school that fuel costs are a significant amount and secondary school children receive free transport if not within walking distance (primary children eligible too but obviously not necessarily fitting in with wrap around care). I fully understand about the difficulties of finding childcare for night shifts etc and I had to arrange all manner of childcare for these times (grandparents travelling hours to look after kids Christmas Day or night shifts sometimes) but was sometimes able to negotiate night shifts for when ex had kids EOW, had to drop to part time to reduce my night shift commitment but then salary topped up by tax credits as was earning less. Yes did have an impact on my career that could only work part time but got to have more time with children with that extra time off so swings and round about’s really. Most mothers I know don’t even have to work shifts so not an issue for them anyway.
The figures I’ve put in are far more than we spend as we have to be much more frugal in our own circumstances, so I’m not sure what kind of lifestyle your used to but certainly don’t think Jack should have to live in destitution to fund it and we’ve brought up 5 teenagers! Maybe you give your kids the latest phones etc, ours get reconditioned ones for their birthdays and a £10 a month contract. A trip to the cinema is a big treat not something we do every week but anyway I’ve put alot more into Jill’s budget than I have for ours anyway. It’s not about Jack’s contribution funding 50% of all their expenses, it’s about what Jack and Jill both have left a month and Jill has significantly more, fair enough to her as she’s doing the childcare in the early mornings, evenings, sick days during the week but asking to tip the balance even more in her favour to Jack’s detriment is unfair.

P.s. plus the food - we spend £400 a month for 2 adults, 3 children full time and 2 dsc part time plus older dc who visit regularly. The 3 children not in full time childcare either. So not sure how Jill would struggle on £300 just for her 2 kids who are in full time childcare in the week plus at their dad’s EoW and half the holidays????

Thanks that’s interesting. I think there is a point that two households are more expensive definitely and RP are getting far more government help.

However paying the CMS minimum is affordable and non payment of maintenance is a huge issue. The CMS does very little to enforce it a lot of the time too. I would like to see the CMS do much much more to combat income hiding and to enforce maintenance awarded. I would like to see them arrest wages, take passports and seize assets for persistent non payers.

Yes agree, the CMS rate is fair on both sides. The time I struggled was when my dh and I moved in together and I was then no longer was entitled to top ups but we weren’t at the stage of combining our finances. Relying on just my salary and £200 a month in maintenance (half of what should have been receiving) left me with very little and significantly less then my ex. If I’d been receiving the full CMS rate then it would of made a huge difference. Some RP won’t receive anything at all like I didn’t for years and it would of made a huge impact on my ability to make the decision to live with new partner until we were married or maybe a case of having to wait till no longer paying childcare etc. I still think forcing NRP to earn a minimum amount is unfair, for example I’ve gone part time since having more dc, if I was the NRP I’d be penalised for that under OPs suggestion. I’d be penalised full stop even if stayed full time as extra full time salary goes in childcare anyway. The NRP would be being penalised not as their dc would be living in destitution clearly, as I received no maintenance for years and my children were not destitute. Even as a PWC I’d personally prefer that freedom for both sides over being guaranteed extra money.

The cms rate is possibly fair on both sides sometimes. But not always. In fact rarely I would say.

When my new DP moved in we (as a couple) lost all top up benefits. We were told by TC that we weren't entitled to UC and not to bother claiming. It turns out since that we were actually entitled to about £30 per week. But that's by the by.

He had to cover some of the costs of my DC because I didn't earn enough to pay 75% of the bills. He was happy to do this and we discussed it before he moved in. We just about had enough to pay the bills and a couple of extras but money was always tight.
Ultimately this relationship didn't work out because of the stress of having my dc there all the time and he couldn't cope with it.

My ex otoh moved in with a woman with dc and quit his job because she 'couldn't cope' with her 2dc on her own. They then had 3 more dc. He has a car and 2 motorbikes, including a harley. He has a nil assessment from the CMS as he apparently earns less than £7 per week. I asked how they think he lives then and was told his wife must be funding it abs they can't use her income. (They were happy for my DP to fund dc that weren't his though) His wife doesn't work either btw, not sure how he's not listed on the benefits claim.
Hes been able to maintain this relationship by not having the dc when it's not convenient. They don't have a bedroom at your their dads house. He feeds them toddler sized portions on the rare occasion he has them and refuses to provide vegetarian food for our veggie child.

On what planet is that remotely fair?

My external costs relating to my 2DC are as follows:

Breakfast/after school club for DC1 £280
Nursery/preschool for DC2 £1,000
Football £50
Martial Arts £70
Trampolining £100
Speech Therapy £200
Food and toiletries £400 (for the 2 DC only)
2 DC clothes £200
Total = £2,300

I haven't even factored in housing or utility bills.

My EXDP simply doesn't have any of the above costs, if he chooses not to. At a push, he'll pay £100 across his the 4 days a month he has them in feeding them. He takes them out nowhere, and lives in a 1 bedroom flat, despite earning £60k, and having almost £100k (house and car sale proceeds) in the bank.

His £610 CMS order a month goes some way towards this, however somewhere nearer to £1,000 would be about right, hence me pursuing him for the 50% of childcare costs he suddenly decided is nothing to do with him. I also had to take him to CMS because he was only paying £300 maintenance previously, and would not properly increase it.

I think in most of the examples given where it isn’t fair it’s a case of the NRP hiding actual income rather than not having an income. The benefit rules are very harsh when it comes to moving in with someone, I went from being able to comfortably afford most things as a single parent to getting into debt to even afford the basics after moving in with now dh, even though he paid 50% of rent, utilities etc. It’s much easier now we’re married and sharing everything, even so, my ds is at uni and due to dh income received a significantly reduced loan, no account of the maintenance dh pays is taken account of or the costs associated with having dsc so we can’t afford to give my ds anything. Cannot understand why isn’t assessed on just my income.

You were right to insist on receiving the CMS rate as he was taking the mick.
However costs do sound a bit excessive, why are you paying £200 a month for speech therapy, this should be on the NHS? It’s definitely not a typical cost. How on earth do you spend more on 2 dc food and toiletries as most families of 4 spend on their entire grocery budget and triple what we spend on 3dc in clothes? If someone on 40k with lower childcare costs gets 85% paid via UC you must be on a significantly more hefty salary to be outside the threshold. Paying 50/50 isn’t always how it would work out, e.g. my ex earns more than me so the CMS rate works out as him paying more than 50% of essential costs, same as my dh with our dc, he pays much more of a proportion than me as I earn less. Surely assets were taken into account at divorce and split equally at the time and anything he receives after then remains his e.g, my ex inherited a large sum but that’s nothing to do with me, he also had a house with a lot of equity but again, we weren’t married so isn’t something that concerns me.

Every family has different outgoings though, don't they @Pippainthegarden?

I pay £200 for speech therapy sessions every month for my DC with additional needs, who is non-verbal. I agree this should be given on the NHS, however having had 3 useless virtual sessions during the pandemic and none since, and we've been "on a waiting list" for in-person since last September, I gave up.

At nearly 5 my DC with additional needs is also still in nappies, so everything around that is an extra toiletries cost. Plus they have a specific diet which mainly consists of fresh fruit and vegetables, and chicken, as they react to most food additives.

So my EXDP knowing all of the above, still chose to pretend to CMS that he was self-employed, hasn't yet offered 50/50 care, and barely attends any of DC appointments; I have to do all of that while working a full-time job.

The only way to get this kind of man to do anything is to force him via government powers, but they're too toothless to make any useful changes.

Good luck with that @FloatyFairy18 My ex owes me thousands and seems to take a weird pride in not paying it. Non payment of CM should be as shameful as drink-driving but no-one gives a shiny shit. Honestly, if you owed tax credits 10p, they’d hound you for it but because CMS actually have to do anything to get money they can’t be arsed 🤷‍♀️

I once joined one of the FB groups for NRPs (the title suggested it was for PWCs) OMG, the men on there!!! They are all giving each other tips on how to pay less money and their girlfriends are joining in sometimes, supporting their ‘fantastic men’. Don’t they realise it’ll be them one day?!!!

Non payment of CM should be as shameful as drink-driving

As a child my father did everything not to pay. I’ve always thought that the newspapers should change the narrative -

It shouldn’t be ‘single mothers’ - negative story, it should be Feckless father leaves children to starve - or Feckless father won’t look after own children’ or whatever

It’s always the single mothers doing the job of two people and then being beaten for not being good enough.

The good news is they are bringing in new legislation that targets unearned income so things like inheritance/property/savings accounts will now be taken into account. I cant wait. These men are utter scum.

Some of the figures quoted on here for Universal credit are simply rubbish. My friend recieved a small amount of £1200 one month and it completely cancelled her UC so people on the amounts quoted earlier most definitely do not receive that kind of income.

My understanding is this...

If you agree an amount of maintenance in a financial consent order done as part of divorce then that amount stands for 12 months.

My DP recently went through this. Between them they're agreed to use CMS calculations, and every June he gets a letter from them stating the new amount to pay. He's always rounded up the amount and so pays sightly over. During financial negotiations when they actually got round to divorcing his solicitor drafted the paperwork to say "payments at amount agreed by the CMS" which was £338 for last financial year. However Cruella the greedy ex got her solicitor to amend it to the specific amount he was voluntarily paying instead. He agreed rather more to'ing and fro'ing and so it's written into the court order as £350.

He's now changed his job for an increased salary, and so we know this year's CMS calculation will be more than both £350. But because greedy chops Cruella had it written into the court order as the specific amount of £350 rather than "as calculated by CMS" she'll have to settle for the now lower amount until 12 months are up. When the penny drops that she should have listened to us she will be seething and as she's such a nasty piece of work that's warming my cockles somewhat.

Of course it could be these regulations were different at the time of your court order, @FloatyFairy18, but I wouldn't think that the amount in the order still stands after all this time. I expect there'll be a clause in there something along the lines of "unless cause for reassessment decrees otherwise".

@Farmgirl sorry, but I think your DP is in the wrong here. £350 is hardly a princely sum in the first place and if he is capable of contributing a bit more TO HIS CHILD, not the ex, he should. Playing games because she did what she could do legally secure the best outcome for the child does not, in my book, make her greedy or evil. And you're making this about a £12 increase she had? Really?

However Cruella the greedy ex got her solicitor

What a nasty vindictive person you sound like @FarmGirl78 Calling the mother of your partner's children "greedy" for wanting £350 a month to raise HIS child? The CMS is a bare minimum. It wouldn't cover childcare so someone could keep on working.

There's a greedy person in your relationship, but it isn't the mother of your partner's child.