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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To wonder what on earth happened with the Leiland James case?

155 replies

Grasscrowns · 30/05/2022 15:04

Utterly horrific, but AIBU to wonder what on earth prompted a woman with no criminal history to ‘leather’ a baby? Even people who believe a good hiding won’t hurt them and other such stupid statements don’t apply it to babies.

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10HailMarys · 30/05/2022 15:54

My guess is that they had no history of abusing children simply because they'd never had a child of their own to abuse.

Having read the BBC news article about the case and the father's testimony in court, it sounds like they were absolutely not a couple who a) should have been parents or b) had realistic expectations of what adopting a baby would be like. They presumably said all the right things to the social workers when they were going through the process, but the father's testimony suggests that frankly the pair of them were absolutely devoid of empathy and treated adopting a baby like buying a pet.

The father said in court that they didn't bond with Leiland because he 'cried and moaned a lot', 'woke up every few hours in the night' and 'wouldn't always eat' which to me sounds like the behaviour of LITERALLY ANY BABY, let alone one who has just been moved to a new home. He said the felt he was 'a different boy to the one we saw with his foster parents', and it was annoying because they 'couldn't get any laughs out of him' as if he was some kind of item they'd bought from a shop that wasn't as described. Horrible.

They also refused to call him by his actual name. His name was Leiland-James Corkill and he was used to being called Leiland but they insisted on calling him James because they didn't like the name Leiland and they didn't want his birth mother to be able to trace him. The Council actually told them that it was important that they called by his proper name but they ignored that advice and refused to see why it was 'a big deal'.

The father also said they both smacked him - A BABY - on the hand or the bum several times a week and that Leiland 'didn't like it' and 'stuck his lip out' but that he still doesn't think there was anything wrong with that. He also said they discussed not keeping but weren't aware they could 'just hand him back'.

It's honestly like they didn't see him as a human being at all. They're fucking nuts.

Grasscrowns · 30/05/2022 15:55

@Sortilege its that which makes me wonder about it all. Did she genuinely think there was nothing wrong with ‘leathering’ a baby?

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Sortilege · 30/05/2022 15:57

Grasscrowns · 30/05/2022 15:55

@Sortilege its that which makes me wonder about it all. Did she genuinely think there was nothing wrong with ‘leathering’ a baby?

No, she knew. She had drawn her DH into a folie a deux.

Grasscrowns · 30/05/2022 15:57

@10HailMarys - so odd they thought smacking a baby was all right. Who thinks that!?

I can understand the frustration on some level: it’s easy for me to say ‘of course his sleeping and eating is unsettled - his whole world is turned upside down!’ but I know on a visceral level you sometimes have a response to this which isn’t logical.

But SMACKING? I’ve had to walk away from my own DS when he’s grinding my gears and I think that’s normal.

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Grasscrowns · 30/05/2022 15:58

The name thing is much discussed in adoption circles. Personally I have no issue with changing a child’s name at Leiland-James’ age. I know some disagree.

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Sortilege · 30/05/2022 15:59

I mean she had time to ask for help or disrupt the adoption didn’t she? He didn’t die the first time she lost her temper. It wasn’t that she snapped once under pressure of his crying. She described herself as a child abuser in one of the texts. She knew. She carried on. She didn’t seek help. She killed him. Having a baby (doll) and looking like a successful family meant more to her than his well-being did.

Greensleeves · 30/05/2022 16:01

They should both have gone to prison, not just her. He not only knew full well that she was abusing the baby, but he was abusing him in his own right. They knew smacking a baby wasn't OK. They had had extensive training and guidance as foster parents - they knew. It's appalling that he's free.

Grasscrowns · 30/05/2022 16:02

I am surprised he is free.

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Sortilege · 30/05/2022 16:02

Grasscrowns · 30/05/2022 15:54

@LemonPalmTree the man game is an old and well established one.

Our expectations of males and females are different and so are the ways they are programmed to behave. I’m hardly weeping in dismay for her Hmm my pity lies with the baby, but I do acknowledge something must be badly wrong within her, and that does evoke some response from me.

I wouldn’t waste emotion. If it had been one dreadful one off then that might be different but it was multiple incidents of violence, despite having ready access to support, and she discussed it with that sorry excuse for a man in between. I hope he never get care of a child again either.

ElsieMc · 30/05/2022 16:03

I live locally. I will only repeat the court reporting. Leiland had been pinched, was bruised and his tonsils were bruised through forcing a bottle into his mouth. Neighbours heard his screams but did not report. This is strictly from court reports. I know the estate where they lived. She had worked as a carer.

The foster carer reportedly coped well with him. There was a history of adhd within the family. It does seem Leiland may have struggled to settle. It was not a family placement,

It is the same area as the Poppi Worthington case.

There will be an investigation into Cumbria County Council social services actions.

Grasscrowns · 30/05/2022 16:06

It makes me feel horribly numb, somehow. Really upsetting, so God knows how he must have felt.

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Merryoldgoat · 30/05/2022 16:14

so odd they thought smacking a baby was all right. Who thinks that!?

LOADS of people think this - surely this isn’t a surprise?

All the people who try to differentiate between a ‘tap’ ‘slap’, ‘smack’ and ‘hit’ to justify their own actions.

Many people are nothing at all wrong with physically punishing children including babies.

Grasscrowns · 30/05/2022 16:15

@Merryoldgoat - I’ve certainly heard nonsense about smacking, it didn’t do me any harm, he was about to run into the road, etc.

But that tends to be for children aged maybe 2 +. Not babies. So yes, it does come as a surprise.

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YouCantSpellAmericaWithoutErica · 30/05/2022 16:16

I understand struggling to comprehend why she did what she did to poor baby Leiland. “Leathering” a baby is mind boggling to me. I don’t understand how you can feel even a tiny bit sorry for her though. She didn’t “just snap” this was prolonged abuse against someone who was totally defenceless. She has probably always had a vicious streak but this murder was the first time she’s been held accountable for her actions.

I struggle to get my head round why her husband didn’t step in at all to protect the baby. If I sent my partner messages about wanting to violently assault my kids he’d be at the very least, worried about their safety and seriously disturbed by my state of mind. My children are far from babies. If I was talking that way about a baby… I trust him that he’d take action. Maybe it’s wrong to assume but the fact he did nothing points to him not only be an enabler but also to my theory that his wife had a vicious, nasty streak already and the way she was talking was nothing new. Frankly it’s disturbing that despite all the checks that are done before people can foster or adopt, couples like this still slip through the net. Not many of course but it only took one monstrous person to murder this baby.

Simonjt · 30/05/2022 16:18

In England its perfect legal to hit your children, so unless they could prove Dad had caused actual harm, it would be very hard to actually have him found guilty.

Post adoption depression is a big issue, it isn’t taken seriously by the NHS or social services. If we then combine that with the fact that it is fairly common for SS to lie about the needs/history of a child and to ignore problems an adoptive parent is suffering. I really struggled with my son at first and attempted to disrupt, social services told me if I did that I was personally destroying his future and increasing his chance of being placed back with his birth parent. Both bullshit, but when you’re vulnerable you’re not able to see that.

No one knows how they will cope being a parent, no one knows how they will cope parenting a child who has suffered trauma and has attachment difficulties who is also a small stranger in your home, as for many adoptive parents the bond isn’t there at the start.

You’re also just left to it, I wasn’t visited at all in the first five weeks of my sons placement, in those five weeks not a single professional saw him, I tried to give him back on week three and even that didn’t trigger a visit. My daughter had a visit on day six and has had nothing since.

There are always going to be people who harm children, as awful as that sounds its true, but we could reduce that by providing actual support to people. From reports if he had been having SS visits, injuries should have been detected, so while the parents appearing okay wouldn’t have flagged anything, the injuries would. Developing a relationship with your social worker would also increase the number of people asking for help if they’re struggling, where as having constant new (and often incompetent) social workers is the experience of many of us.

Grasscrowns · 30/05/2022 16:19

I don’t know either @YouCantSpellAmericaWithoutErica but as I say, I can only assume she is a hugely damaged and sorry individual and I don’t quite know what I believe but I don’t believe people are born that way.

But you do of course have to take responsibility too. Sadly I suspect you are right about the vicious streak.

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ClaudiusTheGod · 30/05/2022 16:21

LemonPalmTree · 30/05/2022 15:48

You wouldn’t be saying that if a man murdered a child

People quite often do say that, especially in cases of family annihilation when the husband has killed the wife and children. Usually you get friends saying ‘he was so gentle, he wouldn’t hurt a fly, something must have made him snap’.

Bobbybobbins · 30/05/2022 16:24

I think the court reports said both parents were hit themselves as children so were 'bringing him up how they were'. My sense is that once you start using violence on a child it normalises it to an extent. So abuse can build up like this over a period of time. So awful.

Dixiechickonhols · 30/05/2022 16:25

I’d imagine there will be investigation into SS support post placement and whether this was actually carried out or hindered by covid restrictions. It’s blindingly obvious that an 8 m old taken from his primary carer to a strange home and two people with no baby care experience will need a lot of support.
I was involved in child protection work as a trainee many years ago. Case I was involved in dad was abusing mum, mum was very young. Baby removed and parents were fighting to keep him. Baby with foster, adoptive placement lined up. By time all went through court baby was nearly 1. Temptation is to think why not place with adoptive from beginning but in this case there was a good chance birth Mum could have parented (she briefly left dad and Social Services would have supported her parenting if she had stayed away from him) She was also visibly pregnant at time went to court so process was about to start again. It was such a complicated area with no easy answers. It wasn’t for me. Hats off to people who work in this area and try to make a difference.

Grasscrowns · 30/05/2022 16:26

You do @ClaudiusTheGod , a case like that happened near me.

However, it isn’t so much that I believe she wouldn’t have hurt a fly etc, more that on the contrary she had a nasty temper and pretty horrible streak. I don’t have a lot of pity, but it is my feeling that she is a damaged and disturbed person.

Poor child.

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SickSadWorId · 30/05/2022 16:26

I believe they have an older child, so they were not first time parents.

Grasscrowns · 30/05/2022 16:27

I did not know that, @SickSadWorId Shock

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Smartsub · 30/05/2022 16:28

I've no idea what happened in this case but I do remember a moment when DS1 was small when I suddenly "got" how easy it would be to snap and do a baby harm.

I had no financial worries, good MH, a supportive husband, involved and willing help from local parents and even I could see how it might happen. It's really hard having a baby in the house.

It obviously in now way makes it OK, but I can see how it happens.

FiveNineFive · 30/05/2022 16:30

A percentage of adoptive parents are total narcissists who punish the adoptive child for not being grateful to them and for not fitting in exactly the way the parents wanted them to

Grasscrowns · 30/05/2022 16:33

I get that as well @Smartsub which I suppose is where some of my feeling for her comes from. I have a very poor sleeper and then if we have a days poor eating then the sleep will be terrible and so find I get all annoyed - don’t show it (mostly)

But it does seem to have been sustained and deliberate.

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