To think maybe they need to make NHS dentist places means tested?

[dameofdilemma]

Reading about the shortage of NHS places and having seen it in real life….is the Govt going to do anything at all about it?

I’m fortunate enough to be able to afford treatment as a private patient but what about those who can’t? Dp is registered as an NHS patient and is even thinking of giving up his place and registering privately (if he knew if would go to someone who needed it).

I’ve had two dentist appointments recently, both times while waiting, a string of people were coming in to ask about NHS places. The local FB pages are full of desperate posts as no one can find an NHS place. They’re facing long, long waits for treatment at hospitals.
Having had agonising tooth pain recently, its debilitating, it effected my ability to sleep, eat and work properly. This isn’t a ‘nice to have’ treatment, its essential.

So maybe the NHS places should be reserved for those on the lowest (or no) incomes? It can’t make any practical sense to offer places to higher earners, if places are so scarce, if all that happens is people are then having to rely on (already overloaded) hospitals or being unable to work etc.

I know we don’t want as two tier system or a shift to private healthcare etc but reading some of the stories of people unable to eat and passing out from dehydration, the status quo clearly isn’t working either.

No. We should all be entitled to use the NHS for free. That is the only way the system will work. What’s the point in paying more tax if, by doing so, you lose the services you’ve paid for?

Where are you going for your nails doing? Because that is just so far from the truth its laughable. Your tone is so smug and condescending and it's based on what? Your own prejudice?

Some of us can't even get in to a private dentist, what shall we do? Let everything else go as well? How does that benefit anyone?

Oh yes, it doesn't.

@Catfordthefifth how often do you do your nails or your hair? I do mine weekly/monthly and go to the dentist twice yearly. You obviously find arithmetic challenging and like a pointless rant.

In your haste to enjoy your rant, you can't see that the obvious problem which is the NHS contract, that has driven dentists into an impossible position. So it's not the dentists' fault and if you're suffering from bad dental care, I'm sorry but there are always solutions. Not being able to find a private dentist usually means it's too much effort to travel. I travel a long way to mine, and value their service more than I would a hairdresser's or manicurist's. Btw have you looked at diet and daily dental care, the overwhelming causes of dental problems?

For those who say it is down to the Government to sort out the NHS dental contract, the last time the country was asked they gave the present administration a 80 seat majority. Actions have consequences.

As fucking usual.

I'm sick of this. Why is it always 'how can we make do with less' rather than fund the fucker properly and efficiently.

The British teeth stereotype is likely to become a glaring reality in the next few years - with the NHS shortage and the recession/inflation, many people just won't go to the dentist.

@Bickles I'm the principal, so unless I can get an associate to take on my NHS patients.. I love doing the dentistry, seeing patients, I have a great team, it's just the NHS it's like a leach that sucks everything out. It's failing patients and Dental teams.

30 years, time to sell out to a corporate, take the money and run?
Although this is the time to do a conversion!

I have a genuine question that's just dawned on me, so any dentists/people in the field, maybe you can answer.

I have read several people on this thread say the NHS contract doesn't cover the fees.

I fully 100% believe that.

But then, many private dentists in my area advertise, and charge, at barely more.

So a check up is what £26.50 with NHS? With my private practice it's like £28.50

Does the £2 really make that much difference?

Or is it more the banding? So (making numbers up here) NHS filling is band 2, £65.20, for a filling with my private practice it's £67

But that covers just one filling, does the NHS do multiple teeth in one sitting, and just charge the one fee, where as my place might do 3 fillings in 1 appointment but charge for 3?

Does that make sense?

Stupid under investment because surely good dental health prevents other more serious problems in the long run and expense for NHS

Like maintaining a car itms

@JustFrustrated hi there, yes so basically on the NHS you get paid the same for doing one filling as you would for doing for example 15 fillings, 3 root canals and 2 extractions. This is a ‘band 2’ course of treatment which pays the practice about £65(?) and the dentist would get about £30. So patients with long treatment plans cost too much money and time which is why many practices are reluctant to take on new NHS patients.

The Tories are privatising the NHS by stealth. Making it almost impossible to get an NHS dentist forces most people private. Dentists cannot make enough money on the current NHS contracts so most are going purely private. This will happen across the NHS whilst they remain in charge

Thank you for the clarification, I appreciate it 😊

Or maybe only the people that pay the tax and fund the nhs dentists should be able to access them. How on earth can anyone say that the people who pay can’t use it and the people who don’t, can!

To clarify - the practice and dentist split the payment the practice doesn’t get the whole £65 (every practice gets paid a slightly different amount), and from that have to pay nurses and receptionists and materials as well as overheads! I heard it costs about £180 to run a surgery for an hour in terms of costs, so just not viable on the NHS currently.

@Pixiedust1234 Sounds like you need to leave your husband.

The issue I see is because this has been happening in NHS dentistry for so long, peoples teeth are already ruined and are at the point of needing intensive, costly treatments. The pattern is just repeating now in our kids, and will continue forevermore.
About 20 years ago I was told I'd need braces by one NHS dentist, was told I didn't need them by another, told that I couldn't have them by a third and am now left with an overbite and wonky teeth that shift. My viable options are to go for something like instasmile (which dentists don't like) or to go abroad (which dentists also don't like.)
NHS appointments are like hens teeth (heh), if you do get one they'll tell you that for that level of treatment you either have to have the teeth out or go private, and the treatment costs for extensive private dental work are extortionate.
The system is trashed to bits and I genuinely cannot see how to fix it.

I agree with PPs saying that dentistry students should be made to do a couple of years of proper NHS work, in exchange for x amount of years student loans being written off. We need actual funded NHS clinics again. We need NHS dentists who do the full spectrum of treatments and not just basic/extraction of teeth.

Of course some patients want the more expensive treatments (crowns, bridges, implants..) but they're not always for cosmetic reasons, especially after years of not being able to see a dentist - so I think you should be able to get these through a NHS dentist too, as long as it's clinically necessary.

That's why I can't abide by dentists from the UK going on huge rants about people going abroad to have 'Turkey teeth' or whatever the case may be. They'd never be able to afford that treatment in the UK, so why wouldn't they go abroad?

@JustFrustrated it's the banding so we get paid the same no matter how many fillings or root canals are needed. We have targets of units of dental activity (udas) so seeing new patients with high levels of dental decay, advanced gum disease means we spend a lot of time stabilising their mouths but don't earn many udas so under perform then get money clawed back for failing to reach the targets.
The also like to change the goalposts for NHS Dentists regularly; a little like Boris changing the rules to suit himself for example the recent targets were 85% of activity for January to March (not easy when you are trying to restabilise patienst that have not been seen as regularly in the last 2 years due to Covid restrictions) they realised over 50% of practices hadn't reached 85% so were facing massive financial clawback, so they altered it to 75% several days afer the target was due to have been reached. It moved many practices into a zone of having reached target but we can't work like that. It's just too uncertain financially. Dental Practices although there to provide vital healthcare are businesses that have invested heavily to do this and have staff dependent on them.

Why should the workers fund treatment they can’t access freely?
Plus we lack dentists - it would require more dentists to work privately and less for the NHS patients - you wouldn’t solve the root cause.

@ObjectionSustained I'd have no problem with people having Turkey teeth if that treatment was done ethically and conservatively with a frank discussion of the risks of what is being done. The images on social media of the "veneer" preparations are horrifying. There is little tooth left, they are in for a lifetime of dental problems.
Likewise some of the online tooth straightening services, if it was done by involving a detailed pretreatment examination with x-rays,identifying risks and
was supervised by an orthodontist and looked at achieving a stable result with a decent bite, I would also be happy.
The Goverment isn't prepared to fund NHS Dentistry that is very clear, they have made all the noises about contract reform for 14 years and done noting about it. Dentistry is the only NHS services AFAI that in the last decade has had reduced funding.
People need to lobby their MPs if they want change, it is out of the Dentists' hands-we have tried.

I can't find an NHS dentist. Have to go private.

Can't even get on a waiting list.

According to my last payslip, which did have some overtime on it, I paid £485 NI for the 4 week period.

Pretty sure I could have a good private health and dental plan for that.

I'd gladly pay a bit extra at an NHS dentist if I could get one. Last quote I had for private root canal was so expansive I just chose to loose the tooth.

@Bickles very true. I have considered asking a colleague for a job just for an easy life.

Many of us working and earning say £25k pa cannot afford to pay for dental treatment, we already have to pay for the nhs treatment which is a struggle

Ps I earn £13k and don't get benefits, I need my nhs dentist

You could means test it all you liked round here and there’d still not be any places - all three dentists in this town have stopped doing NHS work except for children

Means testing is not going to solve it you are right but properly funding the NHS would help. The only reason the dentists go private is because there is more money in it, because there is market. If the NHS was available to all people wouldn’t need to go private.

The Tories don’t want an NHS though, because their billionaire chums don’t, plus sick and suffering people have less fight. Bonus points if a few poor are killed off, they are more likely to vote left anyway.

The real problem is we’ve not been training enough doctors and dentists for decades. It’s been blindingly obvious we were going to suffer shortages as people retire but successive govts ignored it.