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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Not to understand resistance to gun control

255 replies

Maggiethecat · 26/05/2022 12:10

I understand that it serves those with financial interests but cannot understand why Joe Bloggs wouldn't want restrictions on eligibility to carry guns. It's not as if guns are being banned and their freedom is being taken away, it's that there should be reasonable checks carried out.

Are Americans not exhausted by the mass shootings and wonder why this is the only country in the world with such a dismal record?

OP posts:
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Regularsizedrudy · 26/05/2022 13:49

Americans are backward

Mulhollandmagoo · 26/05/2022 13:49

malmi · 26/05/2022 12:34

You're lumping all "Americans" together as if they all feel the same way. Plenty of them are in favour of restricting or banning access to guns. But plenty are not. Some think that protecting the lives of children is more important than the individual right to carry weapons. Some don't. Some don't believe that restricting weapons will make a difference. Politicians can only work within the constraints of what people will vote for.

I agree with this, its a bit of a brexit thing, opinion is pretty much split equally down the middle of the country, no matter what happens a huge amount of the population aren't going to be happy about it.

I do wonder how anyone can't see the glaringly obvious though when someone can walk into a primary school and shoot dead young children, that something needs to be done - even just deeper background checks and a higher age limit.

Regularsizedrudy · 26/05/2022 13:52

daimbarsatemydogsbone · 26/05/2022 13:32

Whilst this is true I think it can be a little unfair. The USA is a vast place so you don't have to leave it to experience a lot of cultural and geographic diversity.

Google is free. You don’t have to travel to educate yourself about other places

FreddyVoorhees · 26/05/2022 13:58

What is it, 120 guns per 100 citizens?

No matter what restrictions you bring in, I just can't see the majority of existing owners simply handing over their firearms anytime soon.

And the risk is that when they do, someone is killed by an illegal gun owner and the gun support politicians will stand up and play the blame game. That this could have been avoided if the other side hadn't called for gun control.

No easy solution but we can hope the NRA get absolutely slaughtered by the lawsuit in New York especially as their Chapter 11 application has been rejected.

ThereWillBeSnacks · 26/05/2022 13:58

LampLighter414 · 26/05/2022 13:44

Fortunately this is a UK site and most users are from the UK so we don't have to worry about this or even think about it at all. Is there a US section? Might be best to discuss there rather than clogging up AIBU getting UK people wound up about nothing

Idiot.

CounsellorTroi · 26/05/2022 13:58

I can't speak for all Americans, but my American xh would point to London knife crime 'epidemics' whenever the topic came up. Utterly ridiculous whataboutery, but there we go.

Some Americans genuinely believe parts of London are no go areas.

LookItsMeAgain · 26/05/2022 14:01

@Maggiethecat - You posted this in your opening post:
Are Americans not exhausted by the mass shootings and wonder why this is the only country in the world with such a dismal record?

Americans are exhausted but the issue is that Congress and particularly hard line 'Republicans' such as Mitch McConnell and his ilk are more interested in holding on to whatever power they have. They have the power to do something. Something a lot more effective than "thoughts and prayers" but they refuse to. And for some unknown reason, they keep getting elected. I really thought at the mid-terms that McConnell was going to lose his seat but he was re-elected.

The only way to effect change it seems is to change Congress and the House of Representatives to be Democratic. If and when the Republican party implodes or is ousted from power, do I think that significant change will occur

FibbyJiggins · 26/05/2022 14:04

RaraRachael · 26/05/2022 13:47

I was astounded when one man said the solution was to arm teachers. Sorry I went to uni to train to teach children, not discharge firearms. So is a US teacher meant to keep a loaded gun in her (presumably unlocked) desk drawer at all times and hope to beat any probable assassin to the draw - very helpful if he's waving an assault rifle around.

More guns is always their answer.

But considering the armed police and armed school guard were unable to/too frightened to stop the guy in Ulveda, I have no idea why they expect teachers to be expert marxmen.

Cartoonmom · 26/05/2022 14:05

I'm American. I've lived on the east coast my whole life, mostly along Boston - DC corridor. I very much envy other countries with better gun control and just overall better standards of living. If I had a time machine I would go to college in another country and never start a career in the US. As a middle aged person now it's very difficult to pick up and leave. I am starting to research retiring in other countries though.

As for America in general, I think it's difficult to say. First off, in terms of federal legislation, there are only 50 Republican senators who are blocking gun control right now. They have the power to do that even though they do not represent a majority of the voting population because that's how the senate was set up to work. It's stupid and I personally think the senate should be abolished leaving only the house & president to pass legislation.

Why are these 50 senators doing this? They are paid by the NRA to do it. Lobbying in American is just a legalized form of bribery.

Why do the people in the states these senators come from continue to vote Republican instead of for the Democrat challenger? I honestly have no clue (my senators are both in favor of gun control). If I had to guess, I would say the main causes are propaganda/brain washing, shit public school education and lack of reliable news sources.

I appreciate you trying to understand the issues instead of just labeling all Americans as crazy.

Maggiethecat · 26/05/2022 14:14

Cartoonmom · 26/05/2022 14:05

I'm American. I've lived on the east coast my whole life, mostly along Boston - DC corridor. I very much envy other countries with better gun control and just overall better standards of living. If I had a time machine I would go to college in another country and never start a career in the US. As a middle aged person now it's very difficult to pick up and leave. I am starting to research retiring in other countries though.

As for America in general, I think it's difficult to say. First off, in terms of federal legislation, there are only 50 Republican senators who are blocking gun control right now. They have the power to do that even though they do not represent a majority of the voting population because that's how the senate was set up to work. It's stupid and I personally think the senate should be abolished leaving only the house & president to pass legislation.

Why are these 50 senators doing this? They are paid by the NRA to do it. Lobbying in American is just a legalized form of bribery.

Why do the people in the states these senators come from continue to vote Republican instead of for the Democrat challenger? I honestly have no clue (my senators are both in favor of gun control). If I had to guess, I would say the main causes are propaganda/brain washing, shit public school education and lack of reliable news sources.

I appreciate you trying to understand the issues instead of just labeling all Americans as crazy.

That's the thing - I think that there must be a significant number of people who want to see change (not even banning guns, just change to help minimise these mass shootings).

But it seems there must be a greater number who don't want change to the extent that representatives who side with them continue to be re elected.

OP posts:
daimbarsatemydogsbone · 26/05/2022 14:15

@Cartoonmom Thanks for the first-hand perspective.

Pyewhacket · 26/05/2022 14:22

I lived and worked in the US for a number of years and nobody I worked with, or friends I knew, owned a gun. The only person I came across who did have a weapon, one of the hospital security guards, manage to shoot himself in the leg with it.

Dotjones · 26/05/2022 14:29

There are lots of reasons why people might oppose gun control. As with anything, there's not usually a single reason or set of reasons that make someone support something.

In America in particular there's the constitution. Some are VERY protective of the constitution. If one constitutional right is taken away (the right to bear arms) then the logic follows that other constitional rights can be taken away too - freedom of the press, the right to petition the government and so on.

There are the people who believe that government should govern FOR the people, but not have unlimited power over them. A well-armed citizenry is a practical deterrent to any leader who decides to dispense with democracy and appoint themselves president for life. It would be more difficult for Biden to decide to enforce a dictatorial regime in the US than it would be for Johnson to do in the UK. Assuming they both have the support of the armed forces, in the UK a citizen uprising would mostly be armed with knives and garden tools at most. In the US the public would be armed with, if not military grade weapons, certainly something closer to that standard.

Another pro-gun argument is that guns are just tools. They have lots of legitimate uses (hunting, vermin control, sport, defence, law enforcement) but can also be used for illegal purposes (robberies, school shootings etc). But this is true of lots of things. We don't ban cars because terrorists drive them into crowds. We don't ban kitchen knives because terrorists use them to kill. We don't ban nuts and bolts because terrorists use them in shrapnel bombs.

Think of the situation in Ukraine and imagine a similar invasion happening to the US or UK. Who would fare better? Undoubtedly the US, because many of them are armed. Would/how could the UK quickly arm people and train them to use firearms against an invader? It might be possible but I doubt the government is hoarding millions of weapons (they weren't hoarding enough PPE at the start of Covid, and that's a darned sight cheaper).

Schools in the US are convenient targets for mass shootings. The very nature of the location means that the majority are unarmed (many schools ban weapons altogether) and also untrained. The pro-gun logic (which is not without merit) is that having "good" people with guns on site limits the danger posed by "bad" people who come in with guns. I say this has some merit because it's true; we've all see then episode of 1000 Ways to Die where a would-be bank robber accidentally walks into the shop next door. A shop which happened to be a gun shop, with staff and customers who were armed and able to neutralise the threat in a swift and permanent manner.

My view is that maybe the US is too lenient. The UK is definitely too strict. Given how shootings still take place here, the logic that restricting firearms prevents shootings is clearly false. There's no way the Plymouth murderer would have been able to kill as many people if members of the public had been armed, for instance.

MissLucyEyelesbarrow · 26/05/2022 14:32

AmandaHoldensLips · 26/05/2022 12:26

Anyone who's spent any length of time in the USA knows that the chances of Americans giving up their guns voluntarily is ZERO.

Gun people are really fucking scary. Their attitude towards guns and justification of their right to carry is like something out of a waking nightmare.

Whenever there's even a merest hint of tightening gun laws, out come all the gun-mad citizens, armed to the teeth LEGALLY and waving assault rifles around in the streets.

It's shocking.

Agree with this. And, unfortunately, all the calls for gun control in response to mass shootings are counter-productive, as they just reinforce gun owners' paranoid beliefs about the (Federal) State taking their liberties.

I understand why the public react with outrage to mass shootings, but I wish gun-control advocates would be a little more tactical. Federally-mandated general gun control will not happen. Attempts to pass it make it more difficult for gun-control advocates in individual states, because they reinforce paranoia about Washington's interference with state and individual liberties - the same paranoia that feeds (and is fed by) the NRA.

Cartoonmom · 26/05/2022 14:33

In those particual states, yes. But that doesn't translate to a majority of the voting population across the whole country. Our federal legislative body is split in 2 - there is the house and there is the senate. Each state gets 2 senators regardless of their population. It's the house that is made up of representatives based on each state's population. So if it was the house refusing to pass gun reform, yes, you could say that's the will of the majority. But it's 50 senators, and many of them come from low density population states.

IMO, the senate was designed this on purpose to protect slave owner interest, who were a very small amount of males, against the majority of working class people, women and enslaved individuals.

FibbyJiggins · 26/05/2022 14:36

Given how shootings still take place here, the logic that restricting firearms prevents shootings is clearly false. There's no way the Plymouth murderer would have been able to kill as many people if members of the public had been armed, for instance.

But restricting firearms clearly does prevent shootings. If guns were more widely available there'd be more incidences like Plymouth.

IstayedForTheFeminism · 26/05/2022 14:37

I wonder if there's any correlation between those who are happy to remove women's rights to have an abortion and those who refuse to give up their rights to bear arms?

FibbyJiggins · 26/05/2022 14:38

The pro-gun logic (which is not without merit) is that having "good" people with guns on site limits the danger posed by "bad" people who come in with guns.

But the armed school security guard and the armed police who were all on site when the shooter entered the building did eff all to prevent those children being slaughtered the other day. Absolutely useless.

Pyewhacket · 26/05/2022 14:38

Dotjones. ............... you are part of the problem.

Maggiethecat · 26/05/2022 14:50

Dotjones · 26/05/2022 14:29

There are lots of reasons why people might oppose gun control. As with anything, there's not usually a single reason or set of reasons that make someone support something.

In America in particular there's the constitution. Some are VERY protective of the constitution. If one constitutional right is taken away (the right to bear arms) then the logic follows that other constitional rights can be taken away too - freedom of the press, the right to petition the government and so on.

There are the people who believe that government should govern FOR the people, but not have unlimited power over them. A well-armed citizenry is a practical deterrent to any leader who decides to dispense with democracy and appoint themselves president for life. It would be more difficult for Biden to decide to enforce a dictatorial regime in the US than it would be for Johnson to do in the UK. Assuming they both have the support of the armed forces, in the UK a citizen uprising would mostly be armed with knives and garden tools at most. In the US the public would be armed with, if not military grade weapons, certainly something closer to that standard.

Another pro-gun argument is that guns are just tools. They have lots of legitimate uses (hunting, vermin control, sport, defence, law enforcement) but can also be used for illegal purposes (robberies, school shootings etc). But this is true of lots of things. We don't ban cars because terrorists drive them into crowds. We don't ban kitchen knives because terrorists use them to kill. We don't ban nuts and bolts because terrorists use them in shrapnel bombs.

Think of the situation in Ukraine and imagine a similar invasion happening to the US or UK. Who would fare better? Undoubtedly the US, because many of them are armed. Would/how could the UK quickly arm people and train them to use firearms against an invader? It might be possible but I doubt the government is hoarding millions of weapons (they weren't hoarding enough PPE at the start of Covid, and that's a darned sight cheaper).

Schools in the US are convenient targets for mass shootings. The very nature of the location means that the majority are unarmed (many schools ban weapons altogether) and also untrained. The pro-gun logic (which is not without merit) is that having "good" people with guns on site limits the danger posed by "bad" people who come in with guns. I say this has some merit because it's true; we've all see then episode of 1000 Ways to Die where a would-be bank robber accidentally walks into the shop next door. A shop which happened to be a gun shop, with staff and customers who were armed and able to neutralise the threat in a swift and permanent manner.

My view is that maybe the US is too lenient. The UK is definitely too strict. Given how shootings still take place here, the logic that restricting firearms prevents shootings is clearly false. There's no way the Plymouth murderer would have been able to kill as many people if members of the public had been armed, for instance.

We don't ban cars because terrorists drive them into crowds. We don't ban kitchen knives because terrorists use them to kill. We don't ban nuts and bolts because terrorists use them in shrapnel bombs.

But a ban is not being proposed. Surely it makes sense to have background checks?

Think of the situation in Ukraine and imagine a similar invasion happening to the US or UK. Who would fare better? Undoubtedly the US, because many of them are armed.

Seriously? Because its citizens are better armed?

The UK is definitely too strict. Given how shootings still take place here, the logic that restricting firearms prevents shootings is clearly false. There's no way the Plymouth murderer would have been able to kill as many people if members of the public had been armed, for instance.

Statistically, shootings here are very rare and even more rare are mass shootings. Glad the government doesn't share your view that gun laws are too strict!

OP posts:
orangeisthenewpuce · 26/05/2022 14:52

Just heard on the news that the answer to the school shootings is more teachers to carry guns and more security in schools. They are lunatics.

Maggiesgirl · 26/05/2022 14:53

I saw this on Twitter this morning and felt it so true.

Not to understand resistance to gun control
ThereWillBeSnacks · 26/05/2022 14:54

Given how shootings still take place here, the logic that restricting firearms prevents shootings is clearly false. There's no way the Plymouth murderer would have been able to kill as many people if members of the public had been armed, for instance.

79% of homicides in the US are gun-related. 4% in the UK.

35 people killed by guns in year ending March 2021 in UK. 19000 in the US.

I agree, people like you, who spout this specious crap, are part of the problem.

FibbyJiggins · 26/05/2022 14:59

The fact we can even recall the Plymouth incident by name says a lot. In America small scale mass shootings with 'just' 4 or 5 victims fall out of the public consciousness very quickly. If they even make the national news at all.

Labadabbado · 26/05/2022 15:01

90% of Americans are in favour of greater limits on guns ( that’s the stat being quoted on npr ) There is a lot of diversity within that of what would be acceptable, so part of the issue is finding consensus. The bigger issue is that a small passionate portion of the republican electorate will vote exclusively on this issue meaning nominees would lose the party nomination if they took a tougher stance (and would also lose a lot of financial backing). The US is not a majority rule democracy - this is one of many issues (abortion another) where the majority are held hostage to the extreme views of a dogmatic minority

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