Angry at long nhs waits

[glitterwobbles]

I get daily headaches and nerve pain in arms and legs.Was diagnosed with cervical myelopathy last summer.
Was referred to another hospital as mine does not have any neurosurgeons and need surgery to prevent it getting worse and possible paralysis.
Have been told that the wait for an appointment is 18 months.
I know that the NHS is struggling after covid. But I have a condition that will get worse and if i had the money could have the surgery privately within weeks.
Just feel let down by NHS and as if the list keeps getting longer as when I was referred it was 10 months. Feel as if I will never get to the top

Ffs the NHS is not “free” - I pay a higher rate of tax and a good proportion of that goes on healthcare which I can’t even access - doctors and dentists around here are impossible to see - I fear getting ill because i don’t think me or my family will get the care we would need. The system is utterly broken and slinging more money at it won’t help - it needs root and branch reform.

But would it have been any better for the health services if we hadn't locked down?

I guess we'll never know. But I do agree that the lockdowns were disastrous for the nation in almost every respect.

Until I worked at a GP I thought all the NHS funding issues were to mant managers believe me there is sooo much waste at primary care level, patients don't turn up for appoinmtnt, patients ask for referrals, never pick up the paperwork or never attend the hospital appoinment, patients don't collect paperwork to do their diabetic checks or routine blood tests. Don't attend smear/mamogram/diabetic eye tests/aortic aneursym checks, people seem to ignore ongoing conditions because obviously when they get worse the good old NHS will save them, sorry rant over

I think the biggest issue is the lack of nurses and doctors. No amount of money can fix that easily as there are not enough qualified staff around to fill the vacancies.

In my view all medical training should be free, but it would still take time for the extra qualified professionals to filter through the system.

How about taking away student fees for nurses and Dr's providing they render the equivalent of 10 years' full time to the NHS with the only exception illness. If they don't they pay it back.

Absolutely this, but I'd add mat leave as well.

And this is what people voted for. If people choose to elect a party that doesn't believe in adequate funding for public services, this is what happens.

I live in an EU country, and have lived in two other EU countries.

The "EU model" does NOT usually involve any private insurance element - and there is not one universal "EU model" as each country approaches healthcare provision slightly differently.

My healthcare here is paid for by the State through deductions made from my wages - just like the UK National Insurance deductions. My employer likewise has to pay something similar to NI. Overall I pay no more here than in the UK. The unemployed, those unable to work through sickness or disability, those not working (students, pensioners etc.) have their contributions covered by the State.

The difference between here and the UK is stark when it comes to the delivery of healthcare. Back in the 1960s, the government here (and in many other EU countries) made the conscious decision that since the country was wealthier than it had ever been, the standard of universal healthcare should be as good as that previously only available to those able to pay for it. What this means is:

• Here there are twice as many doctors per 1,000 population as in the UK;
• I can walk in to my GP surgery and be seen by my GP at any time - I might have to wait 20 minutes at most;
• I get an annual check-up "MOT" and a 20-minute follow-up appointment to discuss the 3-page report, review medicines, address any issues etc.;
• On the one occasion I urgently needed an ambulance it arrived within 10 minutes;
• For the same incident, I had x-rays, an ultrasound scan and pain relief immediately on arrival at A&E - nobody was waiting;
• Next morning (a Sunday) the consultant said an operation would be a good option. When I asked when it could happen, he looked puzzled and said "In about an hour - I'll finish the ward round, then I'll operate";
• The hospital is a training hospital. The student nurses are paid a bursary, are paid for the shifts they work under training, receive all meals on and off duty for €30 a month and have student accommodation provided for a very small fee;
• At my last "MOT" I mentioned a minor niggle - an irritation rather than anything life-threatening. The GP referred me to a specialist who saw me the following week and then phoned me to say that he could do the required minor operation "on Friday" - i.e. three days later.
• There are no waiting lists to speak of. At the height of the pandemic there were of course delays, but the hospitals caught up within 3 months. My daughter, a healthcare professional in another EU country, confirms that there too they caught up with the backlogs within a few months.

The UK could have this level of service - it is after all the 5th/6th/7th wealthiest country on the planet. That it doesn't have this is entirely down to political decisions and mismanagement (and some very poor decisions like PFI) from all of the major parties over the last 40 years.

How about taking away student fees for nurses and Dr's providing they render the equivalent of 10 years' full time to the NHS with the only exception illness. If they don't they pay it back.

No! That is the equivalent of indentured labour. The government could (and Jeremy Hunt did) impose pay freezes, increase working hours, remove health and safety protections and generally make any demands that they wanted to - with the threat hanging over the nurses and doctors that if they don't like it, they can leave; and pay back the £100,000 training costs. No sensible person would sign up for this.

Any other well-run organisation looks at why it is unable to attract sufficient trainees, unable to train them (there is also a lack of experienced staff to actually train the new staff), unable to retain them (working conditions, pay levels, flexible working for people with children etc) and does something about it. The NHS cannot do this - everything is decided from above by ministers with no experience of healthcare (the current Minister is a former banker) and a PM who ideology does not embrace socialised healthcare, preferring instead to promote a free-market approach.

Nice bit of victim blaming there!

It didn't help that the BMA wanted to restrict the number of doctors being trained and voted on a complete ban on new medical schools.

"avoid overproduction of doctors with limited career opportunities"

I.e. keep supply low to maintain high demand and wages etc!

www.bmj.com/content/337/bmj.a748

Any other well-run organisation looks at why it is unable to attract sufficient trainees, unable to train them (there is also a lack of experienced staff to actually train the new staff), unable to retain them (working conditions, pay levels, flexible working for people with children etc) and does something about it. The NHS cannot do this - everything is decided from above by ministers with no experience of healthcare (the current Minister is a former banker) and a PM who ideology does not embrace socialised healthcare, preferring instead to promote a free-market approach

Yes, my DD recently qualified, within two weeks was given a full case load, little support or additional training specific to her role, shit load of unpaid over time, even to the extent she has to use her car (at her expense)
On top of that, she took 2 hours off for a GP appointment and they took 1/2 days leave off her!

She loves her work but its easy to see she wont be able to keep up these workloads and stress levels, already has been offered jobs abroad and in private sector.
Indeed her Uni actively encouraged students to seek work in non NHS sectors, they'd have overseas and private sector organisations come in and run talks on private sector work (pre CV)

@Badbadbunny You are totally correct. The BMA has a lot to answer for but the general public seem to be unaware of the history here.

@Havanananana I have private medical cover in UK but have seriously considered retiring abroad as even our private system is worse than the public system in many EU countries. I have first-hand experience of the system in a couple of places and have been very impressed with the standards of care and speed at which treatment is provided.

Its a dreadful system and often sexist. I have a knee injury which is relatively easily resolved by day case surgery. 99% chance of success in fixing the problem. Yet my NHS trust refused to give me the surgery and basically told me to go away and sit down and stop being active instead. I had to fight very hard for an MRI scan to diagnose the problem.

Yet my DH went along with almost an identical issue in his left wrist (he is right handed) and even before the MRI and nerve conduction tests, he was booked in for surgery.

The NHS as a healthcare system honestly terrifies me. I don't trust the system to make good decisions for my health and yet the private sector in this country is tiny and under-developed as a result of the NHS, giving people few real choices unless they want to lose all their savings.

Havananana live in an EU country, and have lived in two other EU countries.
The "EU model" does NOT usually involve any private insurance element - and there is not one universal "EU model" as each country approaches healthcare provision slightly differently.

I still have my GP in another European country where I used to live, as you don't get automatically kicked off their lists if you move about 5 miles away (another problem with the NHS system) and its sometimes quicker to make an appointment with them if I'm visiting the country.

Last year I needed a steroid injection for a problem in my foot caused as a side effect by the untreated problem in my knee. What a fuss from the NHS. Eventually the GP agreed that I could have one and it was then referred to some other place that took weeks to get in touch, who then put me on a waiting list. I emailed my European GP, made an appointment later that week, flew over and paid 65 euros for the injection. Its around £400 or more to get it done privately here.

I think something that the public don't fully appreciate as well is how much of this crap most healthcare professionals accept already because they so passionately want to keep the NHS. I think this goodwill will fade when the inevitable privatisation happens and somebody will have to actually make the job roles appealing. Someone will have to fund this. Do we think it'll be the soulless businesses or the general public?? The NHS isn't perfect but people have NO idea what they're in for if when it goes tits up ...

Agreed - why restrict the numbers so much. Clearly there will be a tipping point beyond which there would unlikely be jobs.

My understanding is though that there are many medical students who cannot get a placement as a doctor - some parents of medical students on here have complained of this.

I think this goodwill will fade when the inevitable privatisation happens and somebody will have to actually make the job roles appealing

Yep, amazing goodwill in the NHS to keep the thing functioning, far more than i ever experienced in the private sector.
There is a role for private/public partnership but the full privatisation is only inevitable if we vote Tory in 2 years time and much like we yearn for state ownership of utilities/transport, it'll be gone forever.

From what i hear, the current privatisations have gone too far, inefficient and costly, with far too many opposing organisations to deal with to do simple jobs like a discharge a patient back home.

The private sector isn't great in this country due to the existence of the NHS.

In the European country I lived in, healthcare providers cannot increase the premium charged should the patient have certain treatment or conditions. In the private sector here, its normal. And they also could not exclude pre-existing conditions. Again, normal in the UK.

Yet the reality is that for many people in the UK, they actually end up paying twice for healthcare. Once through general taxation and then once again often through their savings or a bank loan to cover that essential hip surgery or cataract surgery to maintain their quality of life because they can't face a never ending waiting list or constant cancellations in the NHS. Not to mention the people who just pay for private healthcare on top anyway because they don't trust the NHS.

@Havanananana , it was the same as the EU countries in the African country I grew up in. I can never understand why people sing the praises of the NHS when a third world country was far superior in health care. My mother has waited four months with breathing problems. She’s been on deaths door a few times and only helped by steroids from a private gp which she then had to ask for again from the NHS gp twice. Had to resort to seeing the consultant privately as the appointment was finally made for august, after a two month wait for an X-ray result and then being sent for a ct scan. The gp didn’t bother to contact her and let her know what the X-ray results were, she just got a call from the hospital for the ct scan after the gp booked an urgent scan. Finally after seeing the private consultant, she feels a lot better in two weeks than she has since this started. I’m not sure she would have survived until August and it’s bloody disgusting that someone who was active and walked everywhere was in a state that she could hardly walk across a room without collapsing and gasping for breath and almost drowning in fluid build up, yet this was going to be left for 7 months before seeing a consultant. I have several other horror stories as I am sure lots of us do. Unfortunately private care isn’t always that great here either, especially as more and more people are forced to use it, and it’s extremely expensive compared to other countries. Something drastic needs to be done about the awful state of health care here.

They wouldn't. They'd just spend more money, mostly via PFI, trumpet it as a glorious win whilst all the time the NHS just becomes more and more dysfunctional and the problem gets kicked into the long grass yet again.

Considering that the Tories have apparently been selling off the NHS for decades, there does appear to be a hell of a lot of it left.

I agree that this is a political issue but we need to stop letting politicians run our healthcare.
I have been a passionate supporter of the NHS and have never thought we should have an insurance system. Right now I wish i had taken out private insurance years ago.
A system that blaims shortage of consultants is broken. How can surgeons be operating once a week for the NHS but work another 2 days privately?
I know I could borrow the cost of the surgery, but do not want to run up debts when my long term employment is unsure as my condition deteriorates.
The irony is I am a nurse working for the NHS.

Considering that the Tories have apparently been selling off the NHS for decades, there does appear to be a hell of a lot of it left.

The Conservatives have been selling off the bits that can be turned into profitable businesses - why else would any company buy them? What's left are the bits that cannot ever be provided at a profit - cancer care, long-term conditions, mental health, A&E etc., and of course the training and development of nurses and doctors - all of which are vital to the health of the population in general.

Add in the lack of general capacity and you get the situation that the country is in now. There has been a huge increase of people using their savings to pay for life-changing surgery. For example people paying for knee and hip operations so that they can regain their mobility and independence, return to work and live a normal life again. People cannot wait 2-3 years for this kind of operation, in pain and with their conditions deteriorating, so they are increasingly opting to "go private". Great business for the private hospitals.

Absolutely this.
It doesn't appear that just pouring money into the NHS works.
Other countries have much better health systems than we do at similar cost so we must be getting it wrong. Someone needs to get a grip on the organisation.
Plan from scratch without preconditions including the sacred "free at point of use".

If you want to see how much NHS funding is not going to actual medical care look at NHS jobs. Hundreds of well paid newly created management posts.

Both main parties have totally different ideas on the NHS, so how would your solution work?

Without management, how does an organisation work?

Its just lazy to state NHS has too much well paid management, an example of how well managed the NHS actually is, would be the vaccine rollout, organised and delivered by the NHS, to national and international acclaim.... very cheap too.

Whereas the privately organised Track n Trace was and is a v expensive disaster.

It's also lazy just to abandon a sinking ship. Most people agree that a universal healthcare system is the fairest and most efficient way to provide healthcare. However society is so apathetic towards our once world class NHS and so quick to allow the corrupt cespool that is our national needers to just sell it to their mates. We should all be screaming from the rooftop from both the social and the professional sides but we don't and we won't until it's too late

Messenger report due any day, the word is that he wants to get rid of plenty of underperforming management, and stop the endless rotating doors for those who do shit jobs, get large redundancies, and then end up somewhere else doing the same job.