In thinking that Left = Good and Right = Bad has gone too far?

[WilmaFlintstone1]

A few things have made me pause in the last few days and I realised I have become increasingly irritated by the Left vs Right discourse,

Take the recent spat between Lee Anderson and Jack Monroe. Now neither of them covered themselves in glory but I don’t think demonising him because he is Tory and praising Jack because she is a Lefty is right. They both have deep flaws and neither is getting it right.

The Margaret Thatcher statue is another thing. Why are people pelting it with eggs? Firstly in a country where there are food shortages it’s immoral to be doing this. Secondly I am not getting the wholesale glee with which certain commentators are reporting it. The very woke lot being all “hey, people are selling eggs by the statue” to wholesale amusement. I just keep thinking “FFS get over yourselves.”

Now I hated Margaret Thatcher BUT she was the first female PM which was in itself a massive step forwards. I am not about to go pelting her statue with eggs, yes I’d rather the investment has been put into local services in that community but pelting a statue with eggs won’t change that.

Its become as though some people will pass any behaviour because it’s Lefties sticking it to the Right.

For removal of all speculation I’d probably consider myself a Lefty and they tend to get my vote…for what that’s worth in my heavily Blue area

isn’t it possible that there are deep flaws both sides?

This. All the things that have really screwed the UK have come from Tory policies. While Labour is a shitshow, the Tories greed has brought the UK to its knees, the corruption and feather nesting is obscene.

Yeah, I miss the small ‘c’ conservatives on the front benches. I do, however, cling to the hope that Boris Johnson might be the nadir and there may be a reversion to the mean before too long.

I don’t have the same optimism for the US.

While I strongly believe a more conciliatory and cooperative form of politics would be an improvement - for the record I'm definitely on the left and would strongly support proportional representation and see no problem with coalition governments - I don't see any particular problem with egging a statue, far better than throwing them at an actual person.

I have family near Grantham and would feel tempted to lob a few at the statue myself if I were visiting, but then I grew up in the South Wales valleys and loathe the woman.

The centre-left have two major problems. If they could solve them, they'd have a good chance of winning and retaining power.

1. The first problem is what to do with the 10-20% of the population who refuse to live in a civilized way. We've all met them, and some of us even have to live next door to them. You know what I mean: the violent, ignorant, screaming, confrontational, irresponsible ar*eholes who ruin everything. The sort who have loads of kids, often with multiple partners, and then bring them up badly (or don't bring them up at all). Their kids then disrupt lessons at school, race round in noisy cars, get involved in crime and have loads of kids themselves (who they then bring up badly, and so it goes on). Ordinary people, with moderate centrish views, resent their tax money being spent on these people. They especially resent their tax money incentivising them to produce even more children.

Let me make it crystal clear that I do not mean 'the poor' or 'the working class'. You could go to the worst council estate in Britain and find wonderful, good people. And there are heroin addicts sleeping in shop doorways who are worth ten of Prince Andrew. But I don't know how you help the good people – the deserving poor – without the other sort taking advantage. The left see them as victims. They seem to think that everyone is a product of their environment and nothing more. All you need to do is redistribute wealth and everything will be hunky dory. Those of us who live in the real world, and not some student fantasy, know that's nonsense. The only real answer is to stop the worst types of people having children. But that's never going to happen, and since it's never going to happen, you're never going to have socialism. People aren't going to work in a job they hate so that an ignorant, violent chav can raise six feral kids on their tax money.

2. The second problem is identity politics. George Orwell wrote that the British left hate their own country. And it's as true today as it was in the 1930s. One of Tony Blair's speechwriters admitted that open door immigration was a deliberate policy. He said that the intention was to "rub the right's nose in diversity and render their arguments out of date." What that really means, of course, is "destroy national identity." I'm no nationalist. However , I do have an affection for Britain, and I do want to retain a sense of national identity. I've had several ancestors die for this island, and my roots go back a hell of a long way, so I'm not going to have some spotty, overgrown student dictating to me about identity. I also identify strongly with the canon of British writers and don't want my children taught a 'decolonised' curriculum. No matter what they say, I can't trust the left to be sensible. Deep down, I know that the majority on them hate this country, are ashamed of its past, and are doing all they can to bring the next generation up to feel the same.

Kris02 great post. 100% sums it up.

Reading along, with interest.

TooBigForMyBoots·
I'm heartened @ Clavinova, I never thought I'd see you post that the Conservatives are just as bad as SNP and worse than Labour.

I didn't post that at all. It is Labour who claim 7 MPs/former MPs with jail sentences in the last 10 years (suspended or otherwise). No doubt you are equally "repulsed and revolted" by the other examples (Labour politicians) I posted up thread.

More hypocrisy from Keir Starmer here -
Teetotal Rishi Sunak received a £50 fixed penalty notice for briefly gathering in the Cabinet Room with a diet Coke/orange juice on his way to a meeting. Starmer labelled Sunak a 'guilty man' and said he 'had to go'. Labour MP David Lammy received a £5,000 fine from the Information Commissioner’s Office in 2016 for authorising 35,000 nuisance calls in 2 days during his mayoral campaign - Starmer appointed Lammy as Shadow Secretary of State for Justice (somewhat ironically) - then promoted him to Shadow Foreign Secretary;

www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/mar/10/david-lammy-fined-over-mayoral-bid-nuisance-calls

I could list these recent incidents as well:

Feb 2022 - Labour MP Neil Coyle suspended over racist comment claim.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-60347836

April 2022 - Labour MP [Mary Foy] 'launched drunken tirade' against Tory.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10765041/Labour-MP-launched-drunken-tirade-against-Tory-asking-review-Starmers-lockdown-beers.html

April 2022 - Labour MP Liam Byrne to be suspended from Commons for bullying aide.
www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/apr/28/mp-liam-byrne-should-be-suspended-from-commons-for-breaching-bullying-rules-panel

However, it was the Tory party that brought us Austerity followed by Brexit and ruined the UK

I don't agree that the UK is ruined at all - I would rather live here than anywhere else in Europe. My local high street was buzzing today with people sitting at pavement cafes enjoying the good weather.

And arguably it was the EU's austerity policy that we dutifully followed;

www.eesc.europa.eu/en/news-media/press-releases/lessons-learned-austerity-make-change-policy-mandatory

Not forgetting that we had a coalition government 2010 - 2015. Current Liberal Democrat leader Ed Davey was a cabinet minister (energy secretary). Ed Davey didn't solve our energy problems but he did take a donation from the 'Chinese spy' woman. Davey took over from former Lib Dem MP (and energy secretary) Chris Huhne who was jailed for eight months in 2013 for perverting the course of justice;
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-21737627

Layla Moran withdrew from the Lib Dem leadership race in 2019 following revelations that she was previously arrested for assaulting a boyfriend;

www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/layla-moran-set-to-withdraw-from-liberal-democrat-leadership-race-following-revelations-she-was-arrested-for-assaulting-a-boyfriend-a4141586.html

Brexit
Arguably Tony Blair and Gordon Brown were responsible for Brexit:

2007 - Labour's broken promise of a referendum on the new EU Treaty is a betrayal of public trust.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-487653/Labours-broken-promise-referendum-new-EU-Treaty-betrayal-public-trust.html

2014 - Blair EU ‘rebate disaster’ has cost UK £10bn.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/blair-eu-rebate-disaster-has-cost-uk-pound10bn-stgsxnn97np

2015 - New Labour failed to predict a surge in immigration – and their miscalculation has shaped British politics ever since.

www.theguardian.com/news/2015/mar/24/how-immigration-came-to-haunt-labour-inside-story

To the extent the issues in Kris’ posts are issues, they are not new ones. Labour has gained and retained power on numerous occasions and it is unlikely that it needs to ‘solve’ those issues as a prerequisite to doing so once again.

With respect to the first point, I should say that I don’t accept that as much as 10-20% of the population routinely engages in the type of anti social behaviour described, but I don’t think quibbling the number would address the underlying point.

While redistribution of wealth is not a magic wand that would cure all anti-social behaviour and petty crime, there is ample research demonstrating that policies like universal basic income do cause a significant drop in low level crime (whilst, of course, also significantly alleviating problems like food poverty).

Given that the only other solution Kris suggests is mass forced sterilization, I think I’d rather try UBI first.

With respect to the full comment The only real answer is to stop the worst types of people having children. But that's never going to happen, and since it's never going to happen, you're never going to have socialism. , for one I fail to see the causal link, but it doesn’t really matter because, certainly for most of the last few decades (Corbyn-period excluded), Labour hasn’t advocated for socialist economy, but fluctuated between garden variety neo liberalism and something akin the the current Scandinavian counties (capitalist economy with a high social safety net).

I don’t wish to delve too far into the identity politics argument of the second point, but it should be noted that immigration has been significantly higher under recent Conservative governments than it was under Tony Blair’s Labour.

The only real answer is to stop the worst types of people having children.

Doesn't Johnson have seven or something?
I feel so sorry for his kids.

@Kris02, even if I don't quite agree with everything you say, ai can see perfectly where you're coming from!

But also, I'd argue that both of your points are not actually criticisms of leftist, per se, but rather of liberalism. (And, yes, the political left has adopted many of the ideas of social liberalism - this is not a contradiction!)

1. Your point that some people ought to be curtailed in their freedom to reproduce is fundamentally anti-liberal in that it implies that state regulations of individual freedoms may, in fact, be a desirable outcome. A classically liberal position as classically also associated with economic liberalism would reject this idea categorically on the grounds that it would necessitate the state to limit individual freedom. A more classical left-wing position would position that there are structural reasons for this phenomenon and that the underlying toot causes require addressing. What you're saying here is actually more typical of (social) conservatism.

1. Cards on the table: I'm not into identity politics. At all. But, again, this is because I come from a more classical left-wing angle that take a class level view. From this perspective, identity politics may or may not be actively harmful in that it encourages splintering into ever smaller and less powerful chunks - and actively facilitates virtue signalling by allowing the rich and powerful to pick some non-threatining tiny minority or other to "champion" without actual loss whilst also being highly successful at promoting group in-fighting and hence implementing "divide & conquer". That's my personal take. Again: not a fan!

But also once more: what exactly about identity politics is not deeply liberal? The focus on the exact configuration of circumstances pertaining to every single one of us strikes me as the ultimate expression of the individualism that is inherent in the liberal position.

For the record: I'm using "liberalism" in the classical sense, not in the way that US Americans use it to mean "center left".

Margaret Thatcher wasn't a step forward. Not on my name. She also hated promoting or hiring any other women. Lee Anderson is bloody horrible, my mum knew him and the circumstances that he ended up elected, none of it was pretty. Left isn't automatically good but right wing views are frequently abhorrent.

People like Owen Jones referring to working-class people in general as "Chavs" doesn't help the lefts cause one bit. Working class people are the people who have to deal with the irresponsible arseholes on a daily basis.

@Kris02

There is good evidence that more materially equal (and liberal and democratic) societies have better social outcomes. Basically less feral behaviour across the board. So in reality it's better to risk giving money to the feral people because over time there will be less of them.

I don't like the idea of people idling their lives away on benefits any more than you do, and I've lived next to such people too. But I also dislike the idle rich on Instagram trying to make everything in life about them. The reality is that over the last couple of generations there has been a huge redistribution of wealth to the very rich from everyone else and that needs to be reversed now.

Oh dear you have’t read it have you - the whole book is about how its an awful classist word and you shouldn’t say it

"Oh dear you have’t read it have you - the whole book is about how its an awful classist word and you shouldn’t say it"
But the word is in the title of the book.
And I've never heard anyone refer to working-class people that work, are law-abiding and pleasant etc as being chavs.

The badly behaved rich are one thing but we feel the badly behaved poor more viscerally, as they live beside us.

This idea that the state should provide everything started with Tony Blair

l think it actually started in 47/48 with the birth of the welfare state.

Tony Blair and Gordon Brown were responsible for Brexit.

😂

Not everything, healthcare, housing ,education and an adequate amount of food on the table.
The theory was, no more sick hungry illiterate kids in slums, once you had the basics it was up to yourself to earn the extras, or so the idea went.
That was after two devastating world wars, leaving families with dead or maimed husbands and fathers and a devastating financial depression. So everyone was delighted with small but clean and dry housing, your kids coming home from school to an adequate if plain - there was still rationing- dinner and to bring them to a dr if worried.
Can you imagine their relief

Tony Blair and Gordon Brown were responsible for Brexit.

Well, in terms of not implementing the 7 year waiting period for the accession countries in the way other EU countries did, you could argue that they were.
Tony Blair and Gordon Brown were responsible for Brexit.
However, since all the arguments around how immigration 'slashed' wages (it didn't) and caused crime (it didn't, and a simple ID card system like the ones in operation in places like Belgium could have helped track who was here) I'd argue that it was typical old British xenophobia that was responsible for Brexit - that and tax dodgers.

And yet our consciousness is invaded at every turn by worthless, shallow, incredibly wealthy people. If it isn't Elon Musk buying the public square it's serious issues like domestic abuse being narrated though a couple of slebs airing their dirty washing in court.

This misconception is a part of the problem, most people can only see things within their own lifetime or experience, many of the problems have their origins going much further back.

And arguably it was the EU's austerity policy that we dutifully followed

Austerity was a Conservative political policy. Austerity didn't have to happen to the UK. It was inflicted upon us by the Tories.

Arguably Tony Blair and Gordon Brown were responsible for Brexit

Tory PM Cameron gambled the UK's membership of the EU to strengthen the Conservative party vote. The Conservatives won the GE, the UK was plunged into a divisive, toxic mess.

The current Tory PM Johnson lead a shady as fuck Leave campaign based on lies. Leave won and none of them knew what to do. So PM Cameron resigned, after saying he wouldn't. The new PM May, probably did her best, but it was not the Leave that people voted for, so she had to go.

The Conservative party then chose PM Johnson to deliver the Brexit he had promised in his Leave campaign. Somehow they forgot that he was a workshy, shifty, self serving cunt of a man who shouldn't be in charge of the petty cash, nevermind the country, so blinded were they by his promises to "Get Brexit Done" with an "Oven Ready Deal" and other 3 word slogans.

Putting the word Arguably confront of a load of bullshit doesn't make it real eg. Arguably you are a Marxist agent provocateur @Clavinova.🤔

I don't agree that the UK is ruined at all - I would rather live here than anywhere else in Europe. My local high street was buzzing today with people sitting at pavement cafes enjoying the good weather.

I'm glad they are enjoying life while they can. The UK is fucked. Life is getting much harder for most of its citizens. And following repeated law breaking by the PM and MPs, people are not as disposed to compliancy with the law as they once were.

The Conservative party have ruined the UK.

Well and even then, it isn’t like there was a significant increase in welfare under Blair. His reforms (introducing the minimum wage and tax credits) were designed to make paid work more attractive to those already on benefits.

If anything, Blair pushed back on the idea that the state should provide everything, so I don’t think this is just a case of the PP being able to see past her own lifetime. Perhaps she’s also unable to see past her own personal circumstances.