In thinking that Left = Good and Right = Bad has gone too far?

[WilmaFlintstone1]

A few things have made me pause in the last few days and I realised I have become increasingly irritated by the Left vs Right discourse,

Take the recent spat between Lee Anderson and Jack Monroe. Now neither of them covered themselves in glory but I don’t think demonising him because he is Tory and praising Jack because she is a Lefty is right. They both have deep flaws and neither is getting it right.

The Margaret Thatcher statue is another thing. Why are people pelting it with eggs? Firstly in a country where there are food shortages it’s immoral to be doing this. Secondly I am not getting the wholesale glee with which certain commentators are reporting it. The very woke lot being all “hey, people are selling eggs by the statue” to wholesale amusement. I just keep thinking “FFS get over yourselves.”

Now I hated Margaret Thatcher BUT she was the first female PM which was in itself a massive step forwards. I am not about to go pelting her statue with eggs, yes I’d rather the investment has been put into local services in that community but pelting a statue with eggs won’t change that.

Its become as though some people will pass any behaviour because it’s Lefties sticking it to the Right.

For removal of all speculation I’d probably consider myself a Lefty and they tend to get my vote…for what that’s worth in my heavily Blue area

isn’t it possible that there are deep flaws both sides?

Anderson wasn't a Labour MP, he was a Labour councillor. He was suspended from the party after blocking access to a Traveller site with boulders. He wasn't some poor hard done by miner's son, he was a very unpleasant individual who was Labour because of his background, but found his natural tribe with the Tories

I believe in a free press and freedom of speech, universal socialised health care and so on
If there was a dictatorship then would there be a free press?

pointythings
Anderson wasn't a Labour MP, he was a Labour councillor

Oh, yes - I didn't correct that bit.

He was suspended from the party after blocking access to a Traveller site with boulders.

He wasn't suspended from the Labour Party - he was suspended by his local Labour group. Anderson blocked the access to an empty car park/plot of land - there were no travellers there at the time. He tried to prevent an illegal travellers' camp setting up in advance - the council said they were going to start a consultation to set up a permanent barrier but took too long about it. Keir Starmer owns a prime piece of land in Surrey - why doesn't he put his money where his mouth is and offer the land up for a travellers' site?

It appears you have swallowed the hook, line, and sinker of the capitalist society dream. The problem is it is purely a dream and can't work in reality.

Capitalism requires perpetual growth which, aside from being impossible,
requires exploitation of people and planet to maintain. You buy X for less than you sell it for or you pay Y to do a service for less than you charge the end consumer. For that to work you need a huge foundation of low cost resources and labour otherwise it falls apart.

If every nmw worker suddenly "worked harder and improved themselves" you'd either lose your cheap labour completely or have to increase their wages to a point you stop making a profit and remember in capitalism it isn't enough to just maintain profit it has to always grow.

This has always been the case in capitalist societies and they are structured to ensure the foundation is always fed and always growing. In the UK natural population growth and then supplementary immigration made sure there were always more going into the foundation than coming out and so growth was maintained. Now due to a birth rates falling below replacement level, immigration restricted due to brexit, and rising living standards around the world the UK are starting to experience exactly what happens when the foundation starts to fail.

There isn't enough new bodies coming to shore up the foundation and so it is slowly crumbling away. And while it will be terrible for everyone when it does final fall, it is somewhat reassure to remember the fall from the top of capitalism's pyramid will be much worse than the fall from the floor.

We dont have to let if fall completely mind you, but the solution isn't to just keep doing what we've being doing for the past 200+ years. Rather those higher up the pyramid need to accept they don't get to keep all the spoils anymore and work to share their wealth. We need to turn the pyramid into a square, or at least a trapezoid.

I'm genuinely interested in what your solution would be to fill the void? Remember it's just been announced that there are more vacancies than unemployed people now so even if you removed all support for people and forced them into work you still won't solve the issue (and will have a foundation workforce of demoralised, unmotivated, and potentially unqualified people doing vital work).

As I've said previously this is the end game for capitalism. If we continue as is/was society falls within the century. If it we accept capitalism has run its course and is no longer a viable system we might progress.

Saying right is bad because you dislike some people on the right doesn’t logically follow.

I didn't say right is bad because I dislike some people on the right. I am repulsed and revolted at the criminals, liars and corruption of the Tory party. And the devastation that they have wreaked on this country over the past 12 years.

To rephrase it as you did @SamReiver is facile.

@Thebestwaytoscareatory I wouldn't completely write off capitalism, it's not an ideal system but it's the best we got for now. What I support is 'capitalism with a human face'. So cracking down on tax evasion by multi national corporations, government built housing for the poor and middle income either for rent or ownership (but can only be sold onto other poor/middle income people rather than BTL landlord- Singapore has a model like that and 89% home ownership-85% of the home owning population owns government housing), government subsidized healthcare and free education, comprehensive safety net, investment in public transport and public services. This needs to be funded by taxes

But yet I also support low corporate taxes for small businesses and I believe that a business friendly environment is important for the economy to grow. Left wing parties are good at figuring out what we need as a society but not great at figuring out how to generate wealth that they can tax to fund their ambitions. But to be fair, wealth creation is not done by government, it is done by businesses and individuals. All government can do is to give them the tools like rule of law and infrastructure and a well educated work force.

A lot of this seems to come from Twitter, I'm not on there out of choice, so maybe I'm immune to it.
People who are on their a lot seem to imbue it with great seriousness and lose all perspective though- a self proclaimed left winger might threaten something vile on twitter, but a self-proclaimed right-winger murdered Labour MP Jo Cox in the actual real world and some other self-proclaimed right-wingers plotted to murder Labour MP Rosie Cooper.
I think anyone throwing eggs at a statue is a bit of a juvenile dick, but we should also remember that the memorial to Michael Foot (paid for by private donations) was vandalised with swastikas.
I guess my point is that there are bellends across the political spectrum, but I do question why right wing politicians and commentators focus so much on how horrible left wingers are rather than telling us about all the wonderful positive things the government are doing. Why could that be 🤔?

I feel fairly central and have at times voted for either side

TooBigForMyBoots

People in glass houses...

November 2021
Andrew Marr: [Claudia Webbe] is one of seven Labour MPs or former Labour MP’s who have been handed a jail sentence, suspended or otherwise, in the last 10 years.

www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1517721/andrew-marr-keir-starmer-claudia-webb-seven-labour-mps-jail-sentence-tory-sleaze-vn

January 2022
A life peer who sat on the Labour benches for 15 years has been found guilty of attempting to rape a young girl and sexually abusing a young boy.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/former-labour-peer-nazir-ahmed-guilty-of-attempted-rape-and-sexual-assault-2f9nfpx6h

March 2022
the victim of sexual misconduct and harassment from a former Labour MP is seeking compensation of up to £650,000.

www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/teesside-news/woman-sexually-harassed-ex-labour-23352060

April 2022
A female Labour MP has claimed that a member of Sir Keir Starmer’s frontbench team made vulgar sexual comments about men wanting to sleep with her.

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/labour-mp-sexist-comments-parliament-b2067273.html

The SNP haven't had a good few weeks either:

16 April 2022
Complaints against two SNP MPs accused of sexual harassment have been upheld by a Westminster authority.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/sexual-harassment-complaints-against-snp-mps-are-upheld-dlb7dfwjf

27 April 2022
SNP accused of institutional corruption over ferries fiasco.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/snp-accused-of-institutional-corruption-over-ferries-fiasco-860xwflvj

10 May 2022
SNP sexual harassment MP Patrick Grady was put on conduct training and allowed to remain as Chief Whip.

www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/patrick-grady-snp-sexual-harassment-26916637

12 May 2022
Former SNP MP Natalie McGarry found guilty of embezzlement.

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/may/12/natalie-mcgarry-former-snp-mp-found-guilty-of-embezzlement

A socialist society will drag you down to the lowest level.

god such bollocks especially given the rest of that post. A socialist society will have a safety net so that the most vulnerable (the young, the old, the unable to work) won't have to go cap in hand to charities to be judged on their wholesomeness and be doled out scraps.

Grammar schools in and of themselves weren't bad. Still aren't where they exist. But the problem isn't the grammar schools. It is writing off kids at age 10 and sending them to less well funded secondary schools to receive a 2nd class education. Getting rid of proper apprenticeships (of the style they have in Germany: regulated by the Chamber of Commerce etc) was the biggest problem in that respect. Because now, of course, everyone "needs a degree".

It is worth pointing out that Marx himself wasn't against capitialism. He rightly spotted that ownership of small companies gave people something to work for as well as providing jobs. win-win. What he was against was the private ownership of the means of production and having that wealth concentrated in a few exploitative hands.

Social democracy, which is what most people on this thread apart from those who are placing themselves much further than right of centre, is something that can countenance both a social safety net and the private ownership of companies while not letting most of the riches be siphoned off into an "eilte" few hands/families.

And as for work harder and earn more: as we all know if wealth accrued to hard workers, women in Africa would be the billionaires. (that's a quote i think and i can't remember who said it.)

I agree with you OP. I hate dualistic arguements and both sides of the political spectrum have flaws (hence i describe myself as more of a left leaning centrist), but this poster quoted really does have a point. The right, due to their majority, don't give a shit about the people they are supposed to be serving and are feathering their own nests as a priority instead, this ends up bringing out the worst in the angry left. It's just a sign of our chaotic economic times. The BoE has also done a terrible job too.

The party that captures the middle ground tends to do well eg Blair then most recent election with landslide

It’s hard to know how next one will go, so much has happened - pandemic, Ukraine war and partygate / beergate etc, cost of living crisis. It’s a while off, so hard to predict

The party that captures the middle ground tends to do well eg Blair then most recent election with landslide

Johnson’s government didn’t capture the middle ground. It captured the Get Brexit Done ground. There’s nothing centrist about the current front bench, we even have a Home Secretary who believes in the death penalty.

@MarshaBradyo I wouldn't say the 2019 election was about middle ground, I'd say that was a one-off which was all about giving people the Brexit they craved. Labour's constant wishy-washy positioning on Brexit did them in (and deservedly).

Labour's problem is that a big core of their former voters are still wedded to their Brexit and always will be. Which is sad, because it's bringing them nothing good.

I was more thinking of Labour in 2019 and what turned people off

He was seen to be further to the left and lost support

I was a strong remain voter but also quite central and apparently there were a fair few of us who didn’t want Corbyn

On another note spending is very high for this Conservative government, admittedly due to the pandemic, and I tend to look at state spending too

I think post COVID no government has the choice not to spend. On the whole countries which spent after the 2008 financial crisis did better than the UK did with austerity, and although I am nowhere near being a higher rate tax payer I don't actually mind paying taxes. I do object to them being spent on jobs for the boys and PPE contracts for Tory mates though.

Labour's constant wishy-washy positioning on Brexit did them in (and deservedly).

I do agree with this though. I would have welcomed a strong Remain towards the centre party

All the above about capitalism is not based on any facts or mainstream economic theory. Capitalism does not require “constant growth”. I’m not going to explain basic economics but broadly if wages costs go up, generally in the longer term some of the employees are replaced by technology. This keeps prices low and efficient industries. If the workers can’t be easily replaced, prices go up. Capitalism is by far the best economic system to produce goods and services.

it’s sad many don’t bother to listen to “experts” anymore and instead make up their own easy narrative. Some of my family are from communist states - real poverty there for the masses with a corrupt few benefiting.

I'm heartened @Clavinova, I never thought I'd see you post that the Conservatives are just as bad as SNP and worse than Labour. However, it was the Tory party that brought us Austerity followed by Brexit and ruined the UK.

Depends what you mean by socialism. A system with a “safety net” is a capitalist society. Pure socialism is a planned economy which should require no safety net (of course in reality it leaves people much much poorer).

a mixed system is what we have and it’s generally to our benefit. We are relatively free, have good opportunities and do have a safety net (to be honest better than most globally). Things aren’t perfect and times are tough but that’s life.

There aren’t children starving in the uk either unless they are being abused. I’ve worked in developing countries and it’s pretty off to make such hyperbolic claims when you see how hard some peoples lives really are globally. There are many people in the world who are desperate to have our opportunities and safety net.

Village good posts, I appreciate the economics insight too (which I’m guessing you studied or read up on)

I completely agree, OP, and I have to say I think that (outside the House of Commons, where the Tories easily win the childish prize) the majority of the blame is on the Left/Progressive side. I say this as someone who has fallen on both sides in the last few years (I was/am Remain, gender critical and anti-lockdown. You want to know who’s going to lose an argument, look at the side I pick…). My general observation is that “progressives” are far more likely to:

• take one of your views as proof of what you think about everything else


• ascribe a moral value to you as a person based on that assumption


• skew everything you say from that point on to fit that narrative, even when it’s the EXACT OPPOSITE of what you said

Ordinary people on the right are way more comfortable with the idea that not everyone agrees with them, and much more capable of agreeing to disagree without descending to fury.

You are assuming in all this we have a traditional right wing Conservative government. One that respects the monarchy, values the sanctity of marriage, wants a low tax economy, law and order, small government.

That is not the government we have with a leader who cannot even acknowledge all his own children, unlawfully involved Her Majesty the Queen in suspending Parliament, has reduced police numbers, and has the highest personal tax burden since the 1940s.

I don't think it's reasonable to compare the UK's safety net to all global economies - it would be far more reasonable to compare it to the economies of countries which are similar in terms of wealth and development. And the UK doesn't come off all that well if you do that. I agree that people should work if they can, save if they can - but the UK system doesn't offer incentives to do that. There are far better ways of managing welfare than the UK method.

balalake I agree with you - this is what my small 'c' conservative friends and family stand for. We agree with each other on many things and are able to have a nuanced debate. And while I couldn't care less about the monarchy or the sanctity of marriage, it's a position that is founded on strong moral principles which are sadly lacking in our current government.

I’m close to this, feel we are rare on here. Nice to read

And agree about the fury and the rest