I'm so tired of it all I want to leave, AIBU to ask for help?

[MajesticallyAwkward]

I just don't know what to do anymore. My 7yo is making our lives hell and I want to take my 2yo and leave.

She doesn't care, no punishment, positive reinforcement, shouting, gentle talking. Nothing works.

Her immediate reaction to anything is to shout, scream, throw, slam, hit and kick. And I mean anything, I asked her to brush her teeth this morning and she screamed at me, slapped the 2yo, slammed the bathroom door back and cracked a wall tile, and the shouting hasn't stopped since. We're an hour and a half in and she's just kicking off over every little thing, she hates me, wishes I was dead, hates school, won't get dressed, doesn't want breakfast.... This is almost every morning too, evenings are the same, I dread weekends because I know whatever I do she'll just scream and lash out.

I'm embarrassed to go anywhere because of the behaviour and now the 2yo is copying because he thinks it's normal. We are supposed to be going on holiday in the half term (long awaited and very expensive!) and I would honestly rather waste the £££ and not go because of DDs behaviour.

Last night she took the 2yo blanket away (out of spite) and when he tried to take it back she kicked him so hard he fell over. She was sent to time out where she screamed at me, literally rolling around on the floor screaming. When I sat and tried to calm her down and explain why it was wrong she shouted over me, made this awful face (like scrunched up, tongue out and full of contempt) and ignored me completely.

I've spoken to her teacher who said he doesn't see that behaviour in school, she is generally happy other than a few issues with friendships that I've addressed with the school. DD said she was being bullied but it appears she was exaggerating/embellishing somewhat. Her teacher has been wonderful about that but there are a couple of things she's noticed that we're keeping an eye on before trying to get an assessment (eg she does things then denies it like throwing a pencil or ripping a worksheet) and has limited empathy/sympathy reactions. Because she's not lashing out at school there's only so much they can do around that. Academically she is doing great, genuinely smart child.

DH is generally ok but resorts to shouting too quickly for me and as a large man I hate when he looses it with the dc. He has also pretty much checked out recently, he has some other stress and his response has been to shut down.

I don't even know what I want from this, I am just so, so tired.

Get family counselling from a psychotherapist who specialises in working with children.

That does sound hard.
I've heard it said that all behaviour is communication.
How long has your DD been behaving like this?
What consequences does she have for good or poor behaviour?
Does she have any special needs?

Do it, over a weekend.
Doesnt matter he’s checked out - he can deal with her over a weekend.
Take 2yo Friday evening and don’t come back until Sunday evening.
dont tell him till you’re out of the house.

Please don't do that to your daughter. There is obviously something going on with her. She probably doesn't like herself very much either - its horrible feeling out of control of your emotions and behaviour like that. If you suddenly disappear with her sibling without her having any forewarning or explanation she is going to feel rejected and abandoned. Expect her behaviour to be much worse when you return.

If you need a break, take one. But make sure it is properly communicated to everyone, including your daughter, first.

You need proper support with your daughter. Your area will probably have family support workers who may be able to offer some assistance, or at the very least will be someone to offer you emotional support, until you are able to get a proper professional diagnosis and support.

Was she like this before your other child was born?

Sounds like she could do with some further checks - could she have additional needs?

Please don't just up and leave for the weekend, your daughter is literally screaming for your help. If she is 'ok' at school there's a fair chance she's just masking her feelings, then it all spills out at home.
Have you considered having her assessed for ADHD/autism - the explosive temper is a red flag, as well as lack of response to punishment. It may not be that of course but there is clearly something amiss.
How was she before her sibling was born?

Hi OP. Firstly, you must be absolutely at your wits end. I'm so sorry you're having a rough time.

You have said that she is waiting for an assessment - do you suspect she has additional needs? It does sound like she might have ASD. This behaviour in undiagnosed girls is quite common, mainly the lashing out once she is at home but being "fine" in school.

You might want to read up on some of the behaviour management strategies for ASD anyway. My children don't have ASD but I was referred to these strategies anyway, and have found some of the techniques helpful with my kids. I used the five point scale of emotions (or it was called something similar). When I remember to do it, it helps me recognise I am getting angry too!

Something is very wrong with your child.
Ask for an app with the GP and start there.
She is screaming for help.
Literally.
Ask for a full assessment and ask the school to start taking your concerns seriously. Casual chats need to be switched and elevated to senior management within school.
Don't leave her. She needs love bombing, reassurance and gentleness and to be 100% sure you are not going to abandon her emotionally or otherwise. Leaving her could see an escalation in bad behaviour not the reverse.

This is where you put your adult pants on and step up for her, she is your dd and she needs help.

She was similar before the sibling but his birth coincided with lockdown and it all got too much for her and the behaviour escalated. Lockdowns were a living hell. So much change was hard for adults so I expected lockdown/covid to impact her.

She was referred for emotional support which we waited months for and consisted of a nurse sending me a list of books and not much else. I've tried to find counselling or therapy but none will see children without CAHMS referral and we can't get that because she doesn't meet the threshold.

Her teacher is also the school SEND lead and has put some measures in place, referred her for counselling with a scheme they have in school (still waiting to hear if she's been accepted), and said we'll look to getting assessments when we know what the outcome of the counselling is.

There are definitely some traits that could be ASD/ADHD, and her teacher said it's fairly common for girls especially to start showing signs around this age. I'm not expecting a miracle and know even when the process starts it's likely to be a long road.

She can concentrate really well if it's something she wants to do. She loves reading and being creative so will happily sit and read a book she wants to or draw/write stories. She refuses to do homework because it's 'boring' (she's reading big novels like Harry Potter and has no interest in the year 2 reading books), hates maths and won't engage with that outside of the classroom. She's doing really well at school, too marks in her class in the SATS mocks recently but won't do basic maths at home.

I won't actually leave, a break would be welcomed but I have nowhere to go and couldn't do that to DD. I know she needs my support now, I just don't know how to give it when I can't even say good morning without her screaming at me.

No punishments work, she'll 'play along' go get a reward then as soon as she has it reverts back. We've tried everything, I've read so many books, articles, research papers and nothing works.

I also need to be there for my 2yo, so much time already has been spent dealing with DD that he gets overlooked or left to it because he's happy to just play with his toys. I feel so sad that he thinks it's normal, I can't do anything with him because DD gets jealous and acts out, usually taking it out on him.

Have a look at PDA which is a presentation of Autism. My DD fits this. She is now 14 and absolutely lovely, we just need to be mindful of not putting too many demands on her.

PDA

@BeanCounterBabe I am so heartened to hear that your daughter is lovely at 14 years old.

My daughter is 11 (year 6) and is very like the OP's description of her daughter. Always has been. Lovely toddler and then everything suddenly became a nightmare. I have read a lot and suspect PDA but am struggling to get anyone to refer for assessment because we don't meet the threshold because school don't see any of the behaviour.

People keep telling me it will get worse during teenage years. You have given me hope that it might not! Any tips?!

Thanks @BeanCounterBabe that's really useful and I see a lot of DD in that.

@HappyAsASandboy we're in the same position, not quite meeting the threshold because she isn't like this at school. It's so frustrating because we all know children mask. She's just keeping it together at school and can't contain it once she's home.

Get to the GP and ask for a referral to your local social communication team. This sounds so difficult for you and it sounds like your daughter is likely very very anxious and unable to express how she is feeling in any way other than escalating behaviour.
It's not unusual for kids with social communication difficulties and/or ASD diagnoses to hold it together really well at school then absolutely crash at home. Good luck.

It sounds awful.

My ds was exactly the same. Constant hysterics and rage over any request made of him. And I mean day in, day out, all day long hysterics. It's like he was jammed on scream mode.

I feel your despair. You just want a day or god forbid, a life without constant conflict and distress.

I used to beg my dh to move out with ds because I simply couldn't take it anymore.

Since your dd is an angel at school then you might find it hard to have your concerns and observations taken seriously.

Please push and push for help from your GP, any kind of child therapy they think might help. You can't deal with this extreme behaviour alone. It's so stressful for you all.

My ds is 17 now. He's calmer but still gets het up over not much. The worst thing is that he's developed bad psoriasis which I believe was triggered by all those years - and I mean years - of total stress.

So sorry OP, for you and your lovely little boy. She sounds like an absolute nightmare!

I'm sorry op this sounds very difficult. One thing I would advise is to videos short clips of your dd at home, exhibiting this behaviour to show the school and your GP. So they can get an accurate perception of what's going on.

Sounding very much like the pattern of female autism. The heavily masking and complying during school hours is just too much and results in the behaviour you are seeing at home.

One positive is she feels able to explode and express herself at home. It's not good for you but is clearly showing she's stable and secure enough with you to show you this.

All behaviour good and bad is a child's method of communicating. She's communicating with you clearly that she's not coping.

Please document, just jot down behaviours, what preceded them, what you have tried etc. all this is evidence to get this looked into.

After reading up about female masking in autism (really important) I'd be making an appointment with my GP to ask for a referral.

School will not be seeing a problem, if she's masking and not being a problem they won't have the time to be picking this up.

Female patterns of ASC are compliance at the detriment to mental health. By the time they hit 10, 11, 12 years old it can disintegrate in a big way at school too.

We've been there so many times in our extended family.

It may not be this at all, but from what you've said my hunch is this needs looking into soon.

Most GPs are still applying the male model of ASC presentation, you need to be armed to go in.

Please help your Dd and get her assessed, look up masking and PDA pathological demand avoidance

take a look at the explosive child (book) she is clearly a very unhappy young girl, although her teacher doesn’t view the bullying as serious a girl on the spectrum will not interpret it in the same way

our DD is 19 now but the last 18 months of primary school were a nightmare, puberty and social changes in this age group badly affect girls on the spectrum but as we’re all trained from a young age to conform and be nice they bring their frustrations home to some they feel safe with (masking)

often once you start looking you may see similar behaviour in others within the family, my DH was diagnosed after DD as we recognised that he also was autistic

Have you tried Banardoes? Where I am they will offer support without CAMHS involvement. Maybe some of the children's charities can offer something?

My DD is similar, we’ve paid for private ASD assessment as a 2-3yr wait on NHS and school don’t ‘see’ a fraction of her behaviour. Have a look at www.pdasociety.org.uk/ it’s been really helpful for us to parent differently to try and reduce demands and thus outbursts. Good luck it’s really tough having a child wired like this but underneath is still the same lovely child just struggling with all the demands thrown at them. And yes girls often start to drop the ‘mask’ aged 8yrs+ I actually got laughed at by a deputy head when she was 6yrs old I queried if she could be on the spectrum as I had big concerns even then, they said no chance and yet 4 long years later she got a diagnosis. Trust your instincts and be prepared to fight for support.

Interesting about the PPs DH being diagnosed when their DD was. I definitely have some traits that indicate ASD, never looked into it as i cope well enough now but school and teen years were horrific so I sort of know where she's coming from.

I think with the right support she could learn to cope with her emotions much better and in a way that makes her comfortable. She was such a lovely toddler- the usual toddler tantrums but nothing like we get now.

It was our gp who referred to the emotional resilience team (who added nothing of use at all) and I felt like the perception was I was being dramatic or a bad parent because there were no issues at school. I think my next step is to speak with her teacher again, chase up the counselling they referred her to and see if we can start the process for an assessment. Even if she isn't diagnosed it's something we can rule out and as PPs have said maybe find some tools that could help.

I can relate to PP and autistic traits. I likely have it too looking at what I struggle with now and struggled with in school.

Once you are armed with evidence and have read up on female presentation get a second opinion from another GP.

Many are less informed with the subtle signs of female autism until it blows up big time.

Even paediatric consultants who don't specialise in autism miss female autism.

It's only just started to get the recognition it deserves, I think since 2017, so we are talking recent advances in diagnosis and recognition.

It's so frustrating. My DD was 'missed' then had a complete mental health breakdown at 12 years. I'm still picking up the pieces many years later.

All this from a child who was no trouble at school with no visible problems to her teachers.

There is a lot of stuff online to help. I can't pretend you won't have a battle with older more traditional teachers and medics.

Stand your ground, be 'that' mother. You and your family will be fine, it's scary but information will help you.

I found that Trauma informed parenting was the only type that worked. At all.
Don't anyone convince you it's all your fault with parenting and you need multiple courses to train you....
It doesn't work with ASC and it's not your parenting.

I wouldn’t get too side tracked thinking it’s definitely one thing as children can show these behaviours for so many different reasons. I’d be a bit wary of being too accepting of the teachers view on the bullying, they often don’t know or don’t know how serious it is. There’s often a tendency to minimise problems at school. I think your plan of counselling first is a good one. Have you looked at children’s mental health services in your area? Can you self refer? Do they have a helpline? Counselling would generally come before camhs so you shouldn’t need their approval. Your daughters age might be a barrier in how easy it is to find someone though. Alternatively can you go private?