To ask if you think teachers might've crossed boundaries?

[putmeinamovie]

I think it's great that there is such a strong code of conduct for teachers nowadays and such strict measures in place should they break them. But it makes me think about my secondary school years.
I've NC'd for this because it might be a bit outing.
I had a situation with a teacher of mine in secondary school which, although not sexual and not necessarily physical, I would class as very emotionally intimate.
It started when I was 15 and lasted until I left school. I've been thinking about it a lot lately and I don't think it was right. I actually think it messed me up quite a lot, and I still think about it to this day.
But I don't know if I have a right to feel this way, because nothing sexual happened, so it wasn't like it was grooming. I don't even know how to talk about it or where to begin. I just want to know if this was normal or a boundary crossed. Why am I still so affected by it years on?

Grooming doesn’t need a sexual outcome for it to be grooming.
Sexually assaulting a child is a risky business. That’s the point of grooming. You groom multiple potential victims, and you only go on the assault the ones where you think you’ll get away with it.
Do not assume it wasn’t grooming.

I’m not telling you that it definitely was though, because there’s no info.

Do you have someone you can talk to?

Sorry, I just reread that and realised it's really vague and badly written lol. Basically what I'm trying to say is, it was a very emotionally close relationship which both of us had to be essentially reprimanded about several times, and I wouldn't class it as grooming because nothing happened physically really. But it still messes with my head and has really affected me. And I don't know why.

The “why” is because you felt then - or know now - or both - that it was inappropriate.

He was even reprimanded! (notwithstanding that I don’t have the details, I’m unimpressed that you were also reprimanded)

I think perhaps a reason to be so affected now, is because of that element of doubt. You can’t process it when you don’t know what you’re processing. So that feeling that you don’t have the “right” to feel a certain way… you do - you have the right to feel however you feel about it!

@Testina thank you so much for your reply. That was actually really helpful, I've always considered grooming as only being something that occurs when there's sexual assault involved. There were a few other people he was also very close with and I always just brushed that off in my mind as a sign that what he was doing wasn't bad, because it wasn't just me if that makes sense.

And yeah.. I actually got told off more about it than he did. There seemed to be a feeling amongst everyone that it was my fault and something I was causing due to my behaviour. I think maybe that's part of why I still don't know if it was wrong or not. Because if it was, why did I go along with it?

In response to you asking if I have anyone to talk to: I am in therapy and I'm actually seeing my therapist tomorrow.

Interesting you mention other people, because I was about to post about that!

Grooming isn’t only the act on one child, it’s about creating an environment.

For example, a male teacher sets himself up as the one that all the girls can come to and tell their “my parents don’t understand me” woes.

99% of them girls that do this, are safe.

For the 1% he goes on to assault… well, he was able to victim select (looking for vulnerabilities, lack of home support) because he’s known as “the one who’s so good with kids”. And no-one bats an eyelid at a young girl going into his office - because half the girls have been in, and nothing happened to them, right?

The thing is, abusers don’t only groom their victims, they groom the adults around them too. One child in his office a lot? Alarm bells. A steady stream? All the other teachers think he’s great, having time for them all, helping them. He’s hardly sexually abusing half of Y10!

And if one girl says, “he gave me a hug when I was crying” (tentatively getting ready to say “and it just felt too close….) she gets cut off with, “oh that’s nice of him!”

The school failed badly in reprimanding you. They should have been offering support and investigating the teacher.

“There were a few other people he was also very close with and I always just brushed that off in my mind as a sign that what he was doing wasn't bad, because it wasn't just me if that makes sense.”

Years ago I observed a teacher with a school orchestra ( over many hours, unusual situation which would be too outing. I wasn’t part of the school) Posing for photos and always pulling one of the girls onto his lap. I mentioned it to the senior person who replied that I was being paranoid, he obviously had a good relationship with the pupils. A couple of years later I was talking to a group of college students who mentioned Mr Music Teacher. Told me how “handsy” he was and how they used to try to dodge out of his way. Said he wasn’t a teacher to be alone with.

I think as pp said, your teacher was grooming multiple girls.

This is actually spookily accurate. Especially this bit:

For example, a male teacher sets himself up as the one that all the girls can come to and tell their “my parents don’t understand me” woes.

Like that was him. That was literally him. I've never seen someone put it exactly into words but you've got it spot on. And also - I was very vulnerable at the time (untreated bipolar amongst other things) and didn't have any home support.

We weren't technically meant to be alone together with the door shut. It was a kind of unilateral school rule but they only enforced it when it was me in his office.

Just because you go along with something, doesn’t mean it was acceptable for the other person to do whatever they did.

You were a child. Society - and the law - doesn’t expect you to make good judgments.

When I was 14, I started wearing short skirts (not today’s version of short!) to my German class because I had a crush on my teacher. I’d have been over the moon if he’d kissed me! But I know you’ll say - that wouldn’t have made his behaviour OK.

I know you don’t have a black and white kissing example, but I hope you see what I mean, that just because a child goes along with something - even pursues it - if it’s inappropriate, then the adult is still at fault.

OK, so I can tell you that 100% he crossed a boundary.
Not by modern standards…
Even then, you both knew that the school did not accept a male teacher to be alone with a female student with a door closed.

He chose to do that.

Not you.

Because he was both the adult and the authority figure.

If you had “sneakily” closed it behind you to feel like you had intimacy with him, he knew he had to open it.

By intimacy, I don’t mean you were seeking sexual contact. Seeking attention, love, just someone to care.

He crossed the boundary by not opening the door. End of.

Looking back, I really wish they had given me support, because I was very unwell mentally and no one really noticed... except him. I feel like a lot of people treated it as a joke at my expense - including other teachers. There was a 'concern raised' from a parent and all they did was pull me out of class to ask if I fancied him. Which obviously I denied, because I thought if I told they'd stop me from seeing him.

That example you've given is horrible. I can't believe their response to him pulling a child onto his lap was to say he had a good relationship with them?! It's awful that senior staff don't see it as the issue it is.

Similar to what you've said about what the college students said.. I have heard stuff from other female pupils in the same sort of vein. The thing is though that he was the furthest thing from creepy.. he was so charismatic and charming.

I don’t mean it isn’t a boundary by modern standards! I mean, I’m not judging him by modern standards alone! It was your school rule, at the time, that he was reminded of.

@Testina that's a really good example and I did the whole short skirts thing too. And I would've died happy if anything had really happened. I think that's why it's so hard for me to accept it wasn't okay, because back then I was certain I wanted it.

If you had “sneakily” closed it behind you to feel like you had intimacy with him, he knew he had to open it.

By intimacy, I don’t mean you were seeking sexual contact. Seeking attention, love, just someone to care.

I actually did do this, like every time I was alone with him. He only opened it maybe 2 or 3 times. I think I just wanted the attention and care like you said, and even though it was such a minor thing, when he wouldn't open the door after we both knew it was meant to stay open I felt almost validated. Like it was proof he cared or something stupid like that

Also re the door thing, as well as being an official guideline or whatever he also got specifically told that he wasn't to have it shut when I was alone with him. The impression I got that this was "to protect him" (from false allegations I presume)

But bring charismatic and charming to a 15yo girl when you’re an adult in an authority position well known for generating crushes is creepy.

Groomers are really bloody clever and manipulative. Like I said - they groom the adults too.

Sometimes though, there’s no evidence to act, just a feeling. Moreso in the past, but still now.

Imagine another adult teaching looking at this. Thinking - I can’t accuse him and ruin his career, or more likely my own because he’s Mr Charisma and Charm and everyone will back him. But I think that girl is vulnerable and my senses are tingling. What shall I do? I know… I’ll tell her off. Maybe I can head off any issue that way.

If you were reprimanded, there’s a chance another adult was (in not a good enough way!) trying to keep you safe.

What he did was wrong. It’s OK for you to believe that. That you wanted his attention and that nothing sexual happened doesn’t matter.

He wasn’t allowed to let you close that door, and he did.

I know my previous posts talk about the situation with him as groomer.

But look, even if he was a lovely guy who just wanted to give you space to be heard, and was stupid in not realising you had a crush on him, and hadn’t had training about teenage attachments and how to handle them appropriately… let’s make him innocent in ALL of that.

He still knew that door had to be open.
You are allowed to feel - right to feel - that he crossed a boundary, knowingly.

If you were reprimanded, there’s a chance another adult was (in not a good enough way!) trying to keep you safe.

This is actually quite a helpful way to look at it, and I do realise it must have been hard for them to speak out against anything. Especially because there obviously wasn't any evidence, and I would have defended him until I was blue in the face. There was one who I feel was trying to help me. I used to sit in her office and cry for hours about how I felt towards him.

Your second post is also very true. I just feel like I'm making too much of a big deal out of it, and I don't know why it only started affecting me recently (within the past year). I think a part of me misses having such an (emotionally) intimate relationship with someone who I shouldn't have done, because it made me feel like someone cares. I had a similar situation with one of my university lecturers years after I left school, and I think this is maybe why I've been dwelling on it all more lately.

I will add, when I say he was possibly grooming multiple girls and the adults around him, that doesn’t mean I think that he definitely therefore sexually assaulted any of them.

It might have been enough for him to get his ego trip, to get off on all the girls wanting to be near him, fancying him.

That is also not acceptable, I’m certainly not excusing that. Just trying to avoid you going down a rabbit hole wondering what happened with other girls.

Don't worry, I completely understood what you meant! ❤

You can make as big a deal of it as you want!

You we’re treated wrongly.
He shouldn’t have encouraged you.
He shouldn’t have shut the door.
You shouldn’t have been the one reprimanded.
The teacher you cried to about him should have stopped you going in to him.
They should have arranged proper support for you.

Most of those points are through a modern lens. I don’t think we can blame a teacher in (say) the 80s for not arranging counselling for you. A school girl crush and a few problems at home - it just wouldn’t be recognised.

But he shouldn’t have shut the door.

You might not get closure in your own mind about what exactly his actions were about, back then. You may have to accept you’ll never know.

It may help instead to focus on why it’s come up for you so strongly now. I don’t want to get too armchair counsellor about this, but the bigger issue to work through might be why you were vulnerable to this situation in the first place - who was letting you down at home, for example.

Here’s my teacher story for you. 1980s.
Some of us used to have individual 15 minute flute lessons, which rotated through the morning so you didn’t miss the same class every week. Teacher had to excuse you, but it was polite mid class to raise your hand and say, “please sir can I go for flute?”

This middle aged male teacher used to get us 13yo girls to get onto our knees in front of him and say, “pretty please sir, please can I be excused?”

And we all did it, and we all thought it was funny. And it was in front of the class, so nothing weird right, just a funny joke?

I’m in my 50s now. No fucking way was that just a joke to him 🤷🏻‍♀️

So you can see why I have no difficulty in believing in inappropriate behaviour!

I think about this a lot. I nearly made a thread on it recently.

When I was in Sixth Form I very openly had a crush on a teacher (it was a big joke, even among other members of staff.) I was very good at his subject and very interested in it so we spent a lot of time on extra study for me, he had me wrote extra essays etc. He recommended me a lot of books and we used to send each other interesting articles. Quite close to the end of my final year he recommended me a book that was extremely graphic, and included a scene where a teacher masturbated over a pupil’s homework. The book won lots of awards and was very literary so I at the time felt kind of strange about it but it didn’t disturb me. Nothing ever happened physically though.

I left school and we didn’t speak again, then two years later when I was home for the summer before my 3rd year of university I emailed him and asked if we could meet to discuss my dissertation topic, which was on his special interest. We ended up meeting for lots of day trips that summer, he would pick me up from my summer job and we would go to museums and wildlife reserves and to lunch. Just before I went back to uni he took me to dinner and kissed me, which really freaked me out. I never saw him again, although he left me a drunk voicemail once saying he loved me.

This was 10 years ago now, and I used to find the memory quite a funny, good story to tell at parties but the older I get the more I feel uncomfortable.

I do think I encouraged him though, and nothing was happening out of school until way after I left. I don’t know. Such a strange incident.

Sorry I didn’t want to derail your thread with just my own story, but yours really got me thinking.

I think your experience @theviscountess is a really good example of how grooming works by operating in those grey areas, that make people doubt themselves, or indeed not recognise what’s happening.

Sure, that book had a good explanation - it was literary!

But he had no need to send it to you. He could even have thought - what a shame, this is the perfect book for her and she’ll love it, so annoying that that scene means I can’t send it. He sent it for a reason.

I’ve recently had cause to read about stages of child sexual abuse - I mentioned victim selection in an earlier post. Exposing children to material of a sexual nature is also very common.

But your teacher operated in that grey margin - where it’s too easy to think, it’s literary, or he forgot that scene was there, or thought you were mature enough for it not to be inappropriate.

Grooming works because it doesn’t leap over boundaries, it just gently and with ambiguity wanders back and forth across them.