Bringing up child manipulation with ex

[boymum9]

I've had a long difficult journey with my ex h during our split about 3.5 years ago, a lot of which is documented on here (I did change username but have temporarily put it back to get advice on this issue so people can look back if wanted!)

He was/is emotionally manipulative and just an all round difficult person, things are better after all this time but now things are coming out in other days.

2 dcs 7 and 4. The 4 year old never seems to want to go to his house, but is fine when there, they both do have a good fun relationship with their dad but he also doesn't actually take on hardly any actual parental responsibility (including things like getting them to brush their teeth). He gets upset to leave home and upset again when I leave to drop him.

Yesterday he made a point after saying he didn't want to leave of telling me "don't tell daddy though! He'll be sad and upset". Multiple times I've had from both of them "daddy was sad about this/angry about this" These are not things that the dc have done that are naughty, these are purely things like being upset to leave me for the night, expressing that they like my partner (who I've now been with for nearly 3 years and really has very little involvement still in their lives).

When I dropped them off at his yesterday and youngest was upset, I could overhear the 7 year old saying to their dad "don't worry daddy, when we're at home he does actually want to come and is excited don't be sad!". Firstly generally not true, he never really wants to go, but like I said is happy once there and settled, but what shocked me about this is that my 7 year old had was so concerned about his dad that he had to make things up to save his feelings. I often hear their dad say things like "well daddy's just going to go home and cry then" "you're making daddy sad" "I guess you can just stay here and we'll go have fun without you then" when youngest is upset.

I want to speak to him about this this morning but I also need to know I'm right in being concerned about this emotional manipulation, whenever I have conversations with him he always turns it around onto me and manipulates me, over the years I have been stronger and am better but I still get sick thinking about having to do it. Aibu to be so upset about this?

I don’t think that conversation would go well.
Just broken record it. For ex + older DC ‘He’s always sad about leaving our house but happy once he’s settled at yours/dads. It’s just the transition that upsets him.’
for 4yr old ‘Your going to dads for x days/sleeps. You’ll have a good time doing X (whatever is a frequent activity). Then you will come back here to our house and we will do X (read stories, play with favourite toy etc).
Would 4 year old understand a child friendly weekly calendar?

YANBU by the way, I just don’t think it’s likely your ex will listen to reason if it comes from you.

That is a child appeasing a dragon.

I am sure there will be many people saying that that is a sign about how much your child cares about his dad and that you have done everything wrong for getting a partner. But be reassured that is so not the case, your child is only trying to keep the dragon happy to avoid him having an outburst.

Having said that, I don’t think it would serve any purpose talking to your ex, he is obviously getting what he wants. It is your child you need to talk to and reassure him that dad is an adult and it is not your child responsibility to keep him happy. Also try to find out what happens when dad’s angry to try to help your child deal with difficult situations.

I think its wrong but I'm not sure that he will see that.
If you mention it then I'd do it purely from the kids point of view rather than focussing on him if that makes sense. Ie dont tell him he is being manipulative, he will respond with be is allowed to talk about his feelings. You could tell him you've overheard the kids talking and they are frequently worried about hurting his feelings to the point of changing their behaviour or lying about things as they are so worried about upsetting them and does he have any suggestions as you're not sure how to approach.

I'd also be telling them that they are not responsible for someone elses feelings and it's not their fault

Thank you for replies.
I have spoken to them and said about how they're not responsible for keeping him happy, which I think the 7 year old understands but 4 year old is quite young in terms of understanding what's being explained to him.

I have bought it up in passing when things have come up before and ex just said that they need to understand if they're doing things that hurt him, but in my opinion they're not doing things on purpose and just need the love and understanding and not the pressure of his emotions on top of their own!

From personal experience in a very similar situation, nothing you say will change his behaviour. It's working for him so why would he? He knows what he's doing. If he cared about the impact on your DC he wouldn't do it.

Your DC will also come to realise what's going on and it could well backfire on your ex in the future when his manipulation becomes clear to them.

I'm so concerned about long term effects of this on them, I try my best to be the most stable of person in their lives and they always come to me to tell me anything without judgement and I think they know there will be no judgement from me, they're so happy and carefree at home but I am seeing the knock on effects of how he is with them in their lives.

He is the "fun" dad, he will do all the fun things that I frankly don't have the money to do anymore, but takes no actual parental responsibility, yet he thinks he is the most wonderful amazing dad to ever walk the planet!

It is really hard. I have thr same situation with covert narc ex.

I’ve recently sought therapy advice because while my DS (now 14) sees it for what it is, and now has little contact with his dad, DD (16) is in a very emotionally emotionally unhealthy relationship with her dad.

the advice was: you cannot talk to him. As pp has said, he is getting what he wants from the DCs. It will play into his narrative if you speak to him (the conversation will be manipulated to ‘mum doesn’t want me to tell you how I feel’).

as pp says, just keep on saying to the DCs, that they are not responsible for dad’s feelings. Keep saying it. They’ll sometimes remember and sometimes forget, but it will be a constant message in their lives. Tell them they’ll have a nice time there and dad will enjoy it too, but then it’s time to come back to you.

You’re in it for thr long haul I’m afraid. Keep steady and calm. I have not always - was a victim of covert narc for so long that was emotionally destroyed - but got out in time to save my son, and try to help DD. Time is on your side, since your kids are young. They are more likely to eventually see, especially if you provide them with a calm, normal and steady home. Just hang in there, keep repeating the message, and help them develop their own thinking and opinions - ‘what do you think about that?. Why?. Over time, it should become clear to them.

good luck x

@MakingProgress2022 thank you so much. I'm so sorry you've had to deal with that, it's such a difficult journey to go through.

I've been told by therapists that ex is a covert narc as well, emotionally I am still destroyed and struggle daily. He still commands control over my life daily even though I make every effort to not engage and be mentally strong. Multiple people have told me that eventually dc will see him for what he is, but I suppose I still just hope he'll be different for them.

Can you afford regular counselling for them? It might help reframe this thinking and give them tools to protect themselves from this emotional abuse?

I found out that letting go of the idea that the ex would do any responsible parenting made my load lighter.

You still need to find away to support your kids through the manipulation but seeing the dad as an uncle that takes them out to fun places may help you feel slightly better, a fun uncle is no more important to a child than a parent they can trust would be there for them no matter what.

His love is conditional, yours is not, the kids know that.

I can't currently afford it but will be able to in the next couple of months once our divorce is finalised, it's been 2.5 years coming because he's been delaying the process every step of the way!

(Currently afford therapy for the children I mean! This is something I am definitely considering for them though, it's been playing on my mind a lot)

I love the first sentence of this post.

Not the same situation but my daughter was struggling with 'stuff' when she was around 8 and a few sessions with a child psychologist helped her to reframe her thoughts about 'values', 'beliefs', 'feelings' and seeing her own and those of other people in context. But I know it's very difficult to find the right kind of support and to be able to pay for it.

I don’t really have any solutions because I’m in the exact same scenario I just wanted to send solidarity.

It’s constant here too. Often they don’t want to go, and feel they can’t be honest because he will be sad. my DS told his dad once that he didn’t want to do the midweek contact anymore (he doesn’t - he finds it extremely stressful) and his dad cried 🙄. DS came home absolutely distraught that he’d upset his dad and could barely tell me.
He is also the fun parent - lots of outings, junk food and screen time but no actual parenting. No homework, piano practise, showering, hair cuts, uniform buying takes place!

I honestly don’t know how to deal with it and I find it so overwhelming. Maybe we need a support group!!

Manipulative bastard. Sorry OP, it sounds like he's setting them up for a lifetime of people pleasing and anxiety. I'm not sure what you can do except keep speaking to them and try to get through to him.

Covert narc is the hardest type to deal with I think.

I'm having a session today with therapist on how to manage DD, who is in a completely codependent relationship with her dad, and angry with her brother who has opted not to see dad currently. I'll post if anything comes up that might be helpful.

You can get 6 free sessions for you with a therapist on the NHS though there's usually a long waiting list. It;s not a solution but does help a bit - google self referral talking therapy NHS.

Therapy for the kids is the best thing, but obviously you need to wait until financially possible. You have time, they're still young.

Their school may be able to arrange counselling, they did for my DD.

I'd have a chat with school - particularly around the eldest. I'd explain the situation to them and the kids reaction. They might be able to unpick it a bit generally, or use other things they do anyway to target skills for the dc which they can use to combat this crap.

They may also as pp have said be able to refer to counselling or even have something inhouse depending on the size of the school/ academy group.

The other thing is to watch your own reactions to him and what the kids see of it. You've done brilliantly getting the kids out of the situation but you say:
He still commands control over my life daily

The kids will see that. They will see you pacifying him and are copying your lead.

Op you have my sympathies. I have been dealing with this for so long. I have spent years trying to communicate with him about how his manipulative and abusive behaviour is affecting the kids. Begged him to stop so many times, pleaded for him to change for the sake of the children. But all was met with it all being my fault, his behaviour was my fault because" I put them in this situation by leaving him" . 6 years we have been separated, my girls are 9 and 11 now and after another episode of mentally bullying them it's all blown up. They don't want to see him anymore..and he's indignant! No remorse, nothing, it's still all my fault. I've tried mediation, but he just manipulates and still is unable to see what he's done wrong. Even when the Mediator spells it out to him, complete denial.
I am left deflated, trying to get help, support and counselling for the girls in the hope we can move forward. All I have ever wanted was for my girls to have a happy, positive relationship with their dad. Instead, they've had manipulation, emotionally been bullied and stuck in a toxic environment with their dad. (Unless there is another adult present obviously, then he's a hero).
In short I have no advice, all we can do is try to protect our kids and explain that they are doing nothing wrong, but it's so hard. Chin up and be strong for them x

Thank you for again for the further replies!

I made decision to mention it to him this morning which was obviously completely futile. He denied anything (which is silly because I see it first hand on a weekly basis) and then contradicted himself by saying they need to know if they have upset him.

I also get the "it's your fault because you left and I didn't want this" after all this time. I wanted to originally do mediation for the divorce process but was advised against it because of his manipulative behaviour. We saw a couples councillor at the end of our relationship and when she picked up on his behaviour and pointed things out to him he refused to go anymore and was extremely nasty about her.

I may talk to the school and see if I can make some progress there.

It's so difficult op, I feel the same. My DD is 12 and her father still does this shit even though we haven't been together since she was a baby.

He hates that I moved on and that she is so settled in her family, and goes out of his way to make her feel like shit. Literally every tiny discussion turns into how awful I am and how unfair it is she lives primarily with me, despite years of begging him to have contact.

He is about to return from a 12 week overseas jolly that he took for his 'mental health' - literally told her he was suicidal and needed 3 months (paradise island with friends, not a retreat or anything useful) because he cries himself to sleep every night because I don't let her spend more time there. Twat. She is constantly worrying he will be upset with her and as she gets older is starting to be obviously quite needy - she's very clingy with me, doesn't want to go there any more than she does because as fun as he is, it's not a home for her (never any food, no bedtime, no privacy etc). DD tells him I said no rather than admit that to him and listen to his pity party. I don't mind being blamed but I hate she feels this way, and even at 12 it's very difficult to handle. She is just starting to see how ridiculous it all is, but it's still slowly slowly. When he told her he was going, her first response to me was well, duh, he misses me so much he cries every night, so to fix it he's going on a 12w holiday?! As if.

It is futile really. All you can do is keep making sure they know they are not responsible for any adults happiness. I don't subscribe to lying outright to them about their other parent - my DD felt too much was her fault. It's a fine line.