To not want my children around a violent man?

[BigYellowElephant]

So my DSS (stepsister) had her children removed by social services last year. Was a huge shock to all of us as we'd had no idea there were issues. She's never told us what happened and doesnt want to talk about it - all we know was that she had been warned on numerous occasions never to leave the children alone with their dad and she did so. They were in the care of a family member (her side) for around 4 months and have now been returned to her care. Her mum has told us dad is "a psycho" and referred to domestic violence and also him being arrested for assault of someone outside the home. That's all we know.

So we've just had an invite to my nieces birthday at the end of the month. I asked DSS if dad would be there, and said if so we wouldn't make it but would plan a fun day out on another occasion (on me) to celebrate DNs birthday. She's absolutely hit the roof. Said I have no idea what's happened and need to stop sticking my nose in. I said that without knowing the full reasons for what happened, I didn't feel comfortable having my kids around him. She then said he's now allowed unsupervised contact anyway (first I've heard of it and no idea if true) so I need to leave the past in the past. She said she's not telling me anything and I'm a nosy parker. She's now not speaking to me.

We usually get on well so I'm a bit startled by this reaction. I think shes probably a bit stuck between a rock and a hard place but unless she's happy to give me more information, and it turns out dad isn't dangerous at all (seems unlikely) then on the limited info I have, he doesnt seem a safe person to have my children around. Just to be clear I'm not being nosy - I don't need to know anything if hes not going to be around my kids. AIBU?

I would do the exact same thing. My kids would come first.

Your stepsister clearly has very, very poor judgment. I wouldn't have my children around her, never mind that man.

How do you think she would react if you said you would stay at the party, with your children? Parents are often present at children's parties so it wouldn't look unusual. You could offer to help with the tea or with the games.

Oh I was always going to be at the party with them, sorry if that wasn't clear. And it's vanishingly unlikely he would start a fight or whatever in the middle of his daughters party. Its more the principle of knowingly bringing my kids around someone I know is unsafe. Setting a precedent that he's their family. Potentially having them develop a relationship with him so they see him as a "safe" person. All of that stuff. She thinks I'm an over thinker but I think it matters

If u attend the party you are saying to your children this man is a safe adult and you don't know if he is. Ss remove children at risk of harm. Of course it's possible he's been wrongly accused and if that was proven would be allowed to move home. But you don't know. I'd thank sil but decline and offer an alternative if she takes offence that's not on you

You are right to stay away.

I totally agree, I wouldn't go either.
If DSS chooses to continue her relationship with this 'man' then she knows she risks losing her children again, permanently probably, and maybe her life. Thats why she's defensive.
It may be that she was looking for solidarity at what must feel a very tense time for her (I am not excusing at all) and as you rightly aren't giving it she's lashing out?
Protecting one's children should always come first.
You are, she isn't....

You have excellent boundaries, what a shame it's not rubbed off on your step-sister!

With an attitude like your stepsister's there's no way my child would have gone anywhere near her house; as a PP said she's probably defensive because she knows the risk she's taking by maintaining her relationship, but that's no reason to risk your own DCs

I would, however, consider a call to social services to clue them in if you know she's still with him despite what she's been told

I would cut all ties but message her to say you’re there for her if/when she’s willing to be honest about what’s happened, and leave her partner if he is violent.

your kids come first.

Your DSS is denying you the facts of the matter (or her version of them, at least) and denying you have a right to make safeguarding decisions about your children. You're being expected to take her word on the matter.

If there were nothing to worry about, in her position I would be wanting to set the record straight. That she isn't doing this inclines me to believe that there is something to worry about.

The only fact you do know is that there was a serious enough issue last year that the children were removed. This could have been a minor MH blip on the part of one of the parents, or domestic abuse on the part of one of the parent, or anything inbetween. You are right to be wary of encouraging your DCs to regard the man here as a trusted adult. I would extend that to include your DSS as well.

You are completely reasonable- but be prepared for a your step sister (and possibly other family members) to think that you are in the wrong and quite possibly keep pushing the issue in future.

I had a similar issue with my own brother. I got on well with my SIL and was happy for my DC to have a relationship with her and with her children but did not want my brother around them. Similar reasons- domestic abuse, violence and extreme drinking (part of my reasoning for maintaining a relationship with SIL was so that she had someone to turn to when she was ready to leave him). Like you, as well as the risk of violent behaviour in front of them, I did not want my DC to see him as someone 'safe' to be around or to be influenced by him (he was very good at appearing to be fun and charming at first).

I am glad that stuck to my decision for my DC never to be around him but it did make my relationship with SIL and my niece/nephew difficult (DNs repeatedly asked why I wouldn't let my DC stay at their house and why they couldn't bring Dad when they came to visit- I suspect he prompted this). It also caused arguments with my parents who for years pretended that he was just a lovely but misunderstood person. Looking back, I think my SIL and parents were trying to pretend everything was OK so by refusing to go along with this narrative I became the bad guy. He also denied/minimised his behaviour and encouraged wider extended family and friends to see me as a liar and trouble causer- which many believed until they witnessed his violence themselves.

Hmm the fact the kids were removed from her, returned and dad is now allowed unsupervised contact all within 4 months does suggest he could have been wrongly accused, it does happen and ss do make mistakes

I guess the man sadly is winning at isolating her from her family, a well known ploy, your step sister is a victim of DV and it might take her a while to recognise that and accept it, I’d attend to offer her support, but depending on the age of your children, without them.

She's now not speaking to me.

Leave that ball in her court. Do nothing to pick it up. I understand that she is defensive & probably managing all kinds of misplaced anger & hurt, but projecting it onto you is out of order.

She didn't prioritise her own kids over a violent man.
No way can you trust her to prioritise yours.

She's also lying to you.
Nobody gets their DC removed for 4 months on a whim.
Again - understandable, & I appreciate there are complex factors underlying how women are unable to extricate themselves from abusive & violent relationships ... but unless she opens up to you, you cannot trust her.

And I doubt she is going to open up. The "nosy parker" comment - when you were nothing of the sort, just admirably plain-speaking - shows that there is a whole heap of mess she's covering up. Again - understandable. The shame & humiliation of living with a tyrant are horrible, & abuse thrives in the secrecy it creates.

But unless she can be honest with you - not your problem, & certainly not your children's problem.

Of course you are not BU.

You could do a Sarah’s law application re their dad as he’s potentially in contact with your DC. It would perhaps give you peace of mind or a good reason to stick to your guns.

I wouldn't just not go, I'd also report to social services. Sounds like he's supposed to stay away from them and is ignoring this.

You are not overthinking this.

If she wants to condone his violence by allowing him into her home & playing happy families, there's not much you can do, apart from avoid.

What a desperate shame. Given the SS involvement & child-removal, this was her shot at getting a violent man out of all of their lives for good, barring supervised contact centre visits - if he insisted.

"Hmm" sure Pumpkin, it's really MUCH more likely that SS made a mistake than a man committed domestic violence, innit.

And yet This all happened in 4 months, kids removed, kids returned, him allowed unsupervised visits?? All sounds very odd, that wouldn’t have happened in the space of 4 months!

In other words something is not adding up and yes ss do make mistakes. The op said it came as a huge shock and they never knew there was any issues

No it wouldn't, which is why it is far more likely that she is lying about him having unsupervised access, isn't it?

@PumpkinsandKittens sorry, maybe I didn't explain that well. This all happened around a year ago, and the kids were in care for 4 months (ish). They then went back to mum where they've been for the last 6/7 months. Dad lives elsewhere and last I heard was having contact centre visits every other week (that was months ago tbf). Shes now saying he's allowed unsupervised access but brought that up mid argument so I'm not sure its true.

YANBU. Any woman who picks a man over her kids doesn't deserve the kids. End of.