To think that US states who want to ban abortion should be able to?

[allsorts1]

Abortion is such a fraught topic in the US. Would it really be so bad to just let the states who want to ban abortion do so, and leave it in the hands of the states themselves to decide? It seems that the Roe v Wade decision has caused a lot of tension in the context of the USA and the feeling that states should be independent and able to choose their own laws (e.g different laws on capital punishment).

Would it be a completely terrible thing for each state to decide on this, and then live with the consequences (as presumably many young people/liberals would relocate to different states where abortion is legal?). Maybe if they experience brain drain they will change their tune. People aren’t forced to live in a certain state.

Obviously I am completely aware this will have a huge negative impact on women in poverty as they have less options. So this is a key consideration and concern.

But I’m just really thinking out loud. I am very much pro-choice, but interested in views from people who understand US law and politics… could the overturning of Roe v Wade potentially be positive in that it settles the issues, states can decide, and everyone can talk about something else?

Or would it just mean that there is a gradual encroachment on women rights and then the pro-lifers start lobbying in pro-choice states and abortion rights are even further reduced. Another risk could be that abortion becomes a political issue every election in every state, and switches back and forth from being legal to illegal - causing massive headaches….

Interested to hear everyone’s thoughts!

Beginning to think this is a wind-up or a journalist or an MRA. Can see no other explanation for why the OP continues to urge women to "vote with their feet" and wait patiently for abortion to be not "politically or economically viable". 233 posts- including some very good ones by Americans- explaining why this is inhumane, but no.

allsorts1 · 04/05/2022 12:24
FunnyTalks
My abortion was after rape. I was a teenager. I wouldn't have had the means to relocate.
I’m so sorry that this happened to you and I am thankful that you were able to access abortion.

What - before that poster shared their horrendous story, you genuinely had no concept of the idea that it might not be possible for a girl or woman with an unwanted pregnancy to immediately move thousands of miles away?

Exactly how stupid do you think we are?

It's absolute nonsense, isn't it.

I really don’t understand your OP. How can you agree with whole states banning abortions, yet be pro-choice?

Yeah, this would be laughable if it weren’t so appalling for the women involved.

This. We know where it goes OP. It was legalised for a reason.

a state has a regressive abortion ban...population migration out of their state to more progressive states and suffer economically for it?

is it ok for the people left behind who can't leave to suffer in meantime, to be denied bodily autonomy?

Note that migration goes both ways: my creationist "Obama is evil" California relatives settled in the south just so they could find a sympathetic environment for the beliefs they already had.

whether returning this issue to democracy and leaving it up to voters to decide, with their feet or with their actual votes, could be a better thing long term.

All the President('s') Lawyers was an excellent podcast that often addressed legal process vs. political process. However, re the overlap zone, I suggest people read up on the difference between Majoritarianism and Democracy.

Also the effects of gerrymandering in state legislatures.

The Star Spangled Banner includes the words 'the land of the free'.

Freedom for some and not others, clearly. Hypocrites.

I don’t agree that states SHOULD ban abortions. I am questioning whether leaving it up to states and the issue to be a political issue (eg like in the UK) rather than decided by the courts could be a better long term approach that would settle the issue and stop galvanising the religious right around the perceived injustice of the Supreme Court ruling in Roe v Wade.

I’m looking at other western nations where abortion is no longer a political issue, all achieved without abortion being secured as a right by a court.

@AProperStinging where did I say that I had no concept this could happen? I was acknowledging her experience that she shared.

@Cinnabomb presumably because they can’t even get a visa to relocate out of their country so are completely trapped? Whereas people in US states face financial barriers to relocation, but do have free movement.

My thoughts are:

• Your posts are goady.

• No one would move state over an abortion. They would either travel outside of their state for an abortion if they had the money and means to do so. If they didn't have the means to do so, and didn't want to be pregnant, they would potentially buy pills online, go to a backstreet abortion clinic, or try it themselves. Abortion has existed for a long long time. Banning it will only stop access to safe and legal abortion. I hope that if it is banned, then underground organisations will spring up to offer still women the choice and support. Like the Jane collective:

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jane_Collective

I will be so sad and angry if it comes to that though. As a healthcare professional who has worked in abortion care, I feel so strongly that every woman should have the right to choose for themselves. It is not up for debate in my opinion.

OP: Why can't it be like this?
Everyone else: easy to understand explanation

OP: But then why can't people move
Everyone else: Poverty

OP: But... asks same questions again
Me: facepalm

@Wallaw I have been doing a lot of reading on the topic, but haven’t read the case law in question. It would be great if you could explain what I have got so wrong with the US system and justice nomination, as I admit it’s pretty bloody complex, but I understand that you may not have the time or will to do so. Contrary to popular opinion I’m genuinely interested in your view, and we really are fundamentally on the same side with regards to agreeing that women should have free and easy access to safe abortion.

It's a really bad idea for America to take a massive backwards step with regard to human rights. Its already a fucked up country that I wouldn't feel safe visiting. This is just proof of their backwards misogynistic mentality.

America sees itself as modern. But this shows how broken and hateful a place it is. Leader of the free world my arse.

Letting them get their way about returning abortion rights to individual states won't shut the anti-choice campaign up or make them go away. They won't be satisfied until it's illegal for everyone.

If abortion is okay to do in some states, but not others, then it's not murder.

If the right to choose what medical procedures take place in your body is a right granted only in some states, but not others, and is a right granted to men, but not to women ... then women do not have equal rights. Not with men, and not with each other.

There is really no squaring the circle, there is no compromise, no "both sides", no middle ground. Either women are equal or they are not. Either abortion is murder, or it is not. There is no people-pleasing our way out of the argument.

I'm laughing here at the idea that a person can have freedom to move even if they face financial barriers. Those are exactly the thing that stop woman being able to make choices and lead to forced birth. I really think you need to stop looking at this as some high level conversation about feelings and other soft stuff. If abortion is made illegal, woman will die. They will have babies they don't want or can't have in bad situations which keep them in poverty, abusive relationships and help to keep the poor population in this country from ever raising themselves out of poverty. It's a cycle that gets worse every generation and that the Republicans are trying to swing this as something positive is disgusting and just not true. You know some states have already said they will enact laws that ban abortion in the case of rape. You want to have a philosophical conversation with a woman in that situation and tell her she should just have moved to New York state? Of course you don't. Because for you - and all the woman and men who voted for trump because Hilary stayed with her husband- don't actually care about the ramifications of stuff like this for people who they have never met and would climb over if they were begging for help on that street. That's the result of all this actual situation that is going to happen. Not a book. Not a discussion but something that will happen.

This.

Plus you’ve said it yourself op:

Obviously I am completely aware this will have a huge negative impact on women in poverty as they have less options. So this is a key consideration and concern.

Women who are already poor and marginalised deserve to be afforded choice over their lives and bodies as much as any other woman. It’s criminal that this is being stripped away from them and we need to do everything in our power to stop it happening.

So women can fly to a different state, a massive hassle and expense particularly if they have kids and if they need to do it discreetly, but at least it's an option. I'd imagine the waiting lists will go up though at the available clinics, or maybe more will open.

If you're a woman with not much money to fly to a legal state to get a safe abortion, what are your options now?

US pay for healthcare anyway so they have to pay regardless, doesn't this already throw barriers up for the procedure to the poorest or do they have healthcare help?

We're so lucky to live in this country and have some solid women's rights and access to free healthcare. I love America but I can't believe how wrong they can get things.

To think that US states who want to ban abortion should be able to?

Absolutely not. Termination of pregnancy should be available to any woman who needs it.

@Musomama1

The cost of abortion in the US varies. Some health plans cover it, including some Medicaid plans. (Medicaid is a Federally funded program that helps low income citizens with healthcare costs.)

There are also funds available to people through the National Network of Abortion funds. Planned Parenthood which is a no -profit that receives about 1/3 of its funding from federal tax dollars, does not turn anyone away regardless of ability to pay.

Obviously I am completely aware this will have a huge negative impact on women in poverty as they have less options. Fuck them though right? So this is a key consideration and concern. For who? Certainly not those trying to ban safe, legal abortions.

This shouldn't be up for "philosophical debate" or whatever you dress it up as. Even more women and girls will die because of unsafe abortions. These are real people (and yes, poor people are real people too).

Would it be a completely terrible thing for each state to decide on this, and then live with the consequences

Yes.

Thank you. I wonder if those funds will be available for any women, regardless of state, I hope so, or the Medicare can be used in a different state.

Then it would be transport costs. Maybe they'll be funding set up?

This is only the first step. There’s an ultimate agenda to give fetuses the same rights as people, which could make abortion illegal everywhere. That’s why California, for example, is introducing legislation to enshrine the right to abortion in its state constitution.

Women in poor countries don't move because of visas but as that's not an issue within thr US you stand by your theory that women will just leave?

This must be a wind up. I will stop engaging. Many many people.have explained that wealthy women will spend money going to another state for abortions. Poor women can't move or travel for abortions.

And even if these mythical wocietal changes that you think might happen do in fact take place..
How quickly woll this happen?! So for years amd decades between you are OK with all the women who can't access abortions just sucking it up?!

You are not posting in good faith. Time for me to go.

True ... Under His Eye is the only response I can think of!