Page 12 | Why why why do people have kids without marriage

changedandcantchangeback · 2022-04-26T19:12:52+00:00

Obviously if you earn more.. have an independent income... so NOT aimed at you.. But WHY after all these years do I see threads from economically improvised women STILL posting how they are so severely compromised ?

Jimmyneutronsforehead · 27/04/2022 10:10

Because men are arseholes and divorce is expensive.

Rosehugger · 27/04/2022 10:14

It's pretty depressing that even now (some) women want a fairy tale day and a princess dress.

I don't find that depressing, only if people spend more than they can afford in so doing.

DomesticatedZombie · 27/04/2022 10:17

Brefugee · 27/04/2022 10:03

I think it's the wrong question though. Morals have changed (yaay for that) and it's no longer seen as awful to be unmarried (and/or single) with a child.

Agree very much with pp who have said that the right question is why do so many women, married or not, leave themselves [financially] vulnerable after having a child. The Gender Wage Gap is real (hint: it is not necessarily about your hourly rate) and pension poverty for women is even more real. So what women should be doing is educating themselves about how to be as sure as they can that if the worst happens (death, divorce, disability) they are not left financially stranded. (marriage as such is still really a financial transaction).

For all those who say "nah - cohabiting is fine": why do you think gays and lesbians fought so long and so hard to be allowed to marry? We heard a lot in before times about how a dying partner's family came in and sold a house from under a gay partner, took all the assets etc etc.
So of course one way around that is to be legally watertight with everything - wills, insurance policy, clear demarcations of ownership. Also if you do decide to SAHM (totally fine if that is what you want, totally not fine if it's because "i have a big man job that i can't possibly compromise by child sickness, school runs etc" and it is your only option) - make sure you have access to discretionary spending money, claim child benefit to get pension credit, and make sure that you have a life away from home/children. If it is financially possible, your partner's income should pay into a pension for you. etc etc

A marriage licence is 46 quid. I don't know if you have to pay for the registrar's time, but if that is the difference between legal security in case of death/divorce/disability - then it is 46 quid well invested. (and even then it is better to be legally watertight in terms of insurance, property, pensions etc etc. Belt and braces is never a bad idea). If you don't want to marry, or partner doesn't want to marry: "legally watertight" are the watchwords.

All of that would have made a far more interesting and useful post.

Lunar27 · 27/04/2022 10:20

Idealistically I never wanted to marry as it's an outdated construct based on religion. AFAIC it serves no real purpose in a loving relationship and adds nothing. IMO having children is the ultimate commitment and means more than a certificate. Marriage isn't going to make me love my wife any more than I do already so there's no point from an emotional standpoint, which is what marriage is supposed to be about.

Really I think legal protections should be there without marriage but good luck with that change as it's never going to happen.

Yet I got married as it's the right thing to do to protect my wife and kids. That's so far removed from what marriage is supposed to be about but there you go!

BeerLoas · 27/04/2022 10:28

Own property as joint tenants
All utilities in both names
Joint bank accounts (if you want)
Father listed on birth certificate
Ensure each other is nominated beneficiary on pension and death in service policies etc.

Cost of a basic will £20
Cost of lasting power of attorney £82

Done.

(with the exception you fall outside inheritance tax exemption - currently over £325k).

Dixiechickonhols · 27/04/2022 10:37

Last time I checked it was £170 for everything to marry (same for civil partnership) - that was notice, weekday registry office and certificate.
To replicate some protections of marriage it will cost you more than that so usually people who ‘can’t afford’ to marry can’t afford wills etc.
I come on threads like this as my background is legal and despite posters saying no one is that clueless I’ve come across many real scenarios where women were worse off for not being married - often badly to their detriment.
My teen has had half of one phse lesson on subject. Marry or not it’s a personal decision but at least make an informed decision.
If someone says ‘it’s just a piece of paper’ I know they don’t understand differences. Again in my experience the ‘it’s just a piece of paper’ ones also haven’t sorted paperwork like nominating girlfriend for their pension or got life insurance to make up for fact gf won’t get widows allowance if they die.
Someone on a weddings thread the other day said they couldn’t be bothered with faff of a wedding and my thought was I couldn’t be bothered with faff if he died and we weren’t married but my head jumps to scenarios I know about.

Dragon567 · 27/04/2022 10:42

TalkingCat · 27/04/2022 06:47

I guess our grandparents and great grand parents have 'low intelligence and reasoning skills then'. 🙄

Or, perhaps, they were right.

I have to say I would be so embarrassed if my partner wouldn't commit to me after 26 years. Embarrassed and ashamed.

Isn't being in a relationship for 26 years evidence enough of commitment? It's longer than a lot of marriages last.

SexyPortugese · 27/04/2022 10:42

Dixiechickonhols · 27/04/2022 10:37

Last time I checked it was £170 for everything to marry (same for civil partnership) - that was notice, weekday registry office and certificate.
To replicate some protections of marriage it will cost you more than that so usually people who ‘can’t afford’ to marry can’t afford wills etc.
I come on threads like this as my background is legal and despite posters saying no one is that clueless I’ve come across many real scenarios where women were worse off for not being married - often badly to their detriment.
My teen has had half of one phse lesson on subject. Marry or not it’s a personal decision but at least make an informed decision.
If someone says ‘it’s just a piece of paper’ I know they don’t understand differences. Again in my experience the ‘it’s just a piece of paper’ ones also haven’t sorted paperwork like nominating girlfriend for their pension or got life insurance to make up for fact gf won’t get widows allowance if they die.
Someone on a weddings thread the other day said they couldn’t be bothered with faff of a wedding and my thought was I couldn’t be bothered with faff if he died and we weren’t married but my head jumps to scenarios I know about.

Marriage is one of those things that feels like no big deal as long as life is going okay. Unfortunately when shit hits the fan and illness or death or breaking up and dividing property and finances comes into play, that's when people realise it's far from just a piece of paper. The 'just a piece of paper' phrase really floors me, how anyone can believe that legally committing to someone in the eyes of the law and government is just a bit of paper is astonishing. Admittedly, the people I know who say that tend to be the ones who would love to get married but their partner won't or people who don't want to marry and want to diminish it to try and get their partner to be happy without it. It's a cope or a manipulation tactic.

BeerLoas · 27/04/2022 10:43

people going “don’t ya know there’s no such thing as common law spouse” are often the same people rambling on about next of kin - which has no real legal definition.

Dixiechickonhols · 27/04/2022 10:51

www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-7334313/amp/I-never-felt-marriage-important-day-Paolo-died.html

I think of scenarios like this.
The Nok thing I think of my mil denied access to her dying partner. This was recent in England. Covid limited visitors, his adult daughter was his nok and there was nothing mil could do but accept scraps of visits daughter allowed.
Even if hospitals here are usually accommodating people get ill or die abroad.

VeneziaGiulia45 · 27/04/2022 10:54

Why are people so anti-marriage, as if it's some kind of necessary evil?

Married people tend to be happier and tend to live longer. They have fewer heart attacks, a lower risk of depression, and better survival rates for cancer and major operations. Marriage is the best environment in which to raise children. 90% of parents who stay together until their children reach 19 are married. Children of married parents are more likely to go to university and less likely to receive government benefits. They have higher self-esteem and better mental health.

Marriage is not just about private relationships. It is about serving the public good by contributing to a stable society by providing a secure stable environment in which to raise children.

No apologies for stating this, no matter how "outdated" this sounds. Just because society "progresses", that doesn't mean that such progression is always for the better.

VeneziaGiulia45 · 27/04/2022 10:55

VeneziaGiulia45 · 27/04/2022 10:54

Why are people so anti-marriage, as if it's some kind of necessary evil?

Married people tend to be happier and tend to live longer. They have fewer heart attacks, a lower risk of depression, and better survival rates for cancer and major operations. Marriage is the best environment in which to raise children. 90% of parents who stay together until their children reach 19 are married. Children of married parents are more likely to go to university and less likely to receive government benefits. They have higher self-esteem and better mental health.

Marriage is not just about private relationships. It is about serving the public good by contributing to a stable society by providing a secure stable environment in which to raise children.

No apologies for stating this, no matter how "outdated" this sounds. Just because society "progresses", that doesn't mean that such progression is always for the better.

*Reach 15 I meant to write

Suprima · 27/04/2022 10:56

BeerLoas · 27/04/2022 10:43

people going “don’t ya know there’s no such thing as common law spouse” are often the same people rambling on about next of kin - which has no real legal definition.

Unless there is a next of kin card being carried by the unconscious/incapacitated person, no hospital is going to go to a girlfriend for final decisions if there are living parents.

NOK cards and POW are not widely created, unless it’s a couple who have assets they both want to protect and no prenup. Or they are ideologically against marriage.

Your average Joe ‘marriage is just a piece of paper’ or Tim ‘weddings are a waste of money’ are not going to bother carrying a NOK to protect the decisions of the woman they apparently love.

Suprima · 27/04/2022 11:00

Dragon567 · 27/04/2022 10:42

Isn't being in a relationship for 26 years evidence enough of commitment? It's longer than a lot of marriages last.

Show quote history

Nope- I would be fucking embarrassed if the man who I loved and had children with had gone 26 years without wanting to buy me a lovely ring and tell the world that I am his wife, making us a legal family and giving me all of the protections of the law.

SexyPortugese · 27/04/2022 11:02

Dixiechickonhols · 27/04/2022 10:51

www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-7334313/amp/I-never-felt-marriage-important-day-Paolo-died.html

I think of scenarios like this.
The Nok thing I think of my mil denied access to her dying partner. This was recent in England. Covid limited visitors, his adult daughter was his nok and there was nothing mil could do but accept scraps of visits daughter allowed.
Even if hospitals here are usually accommodating people get ill or die abroad.

That article is so sad. What shocked me was that they were engaged for years, so clearly at some point they believed in and wanted to get married. But they never did.

VeneziaGiulia45 · 27/04/2022 11:02

VeneziaGiulia45 · 27/04/2022 10:54

Why are people so anti-marriage, as if it's some kind of necessary evil?

Married people tend to be happier and tend to live longer. They have fewer heart attacks, a lower risk of depression, and better survival rates for cancer and major operations. Marriage is the best environment in which to raise children. 90% of parents who stay together until their children reach 19 are married. Children of married parents are more likely to go to university and less likely to receive government benefits. They have higher self-esteem and better mental health.

Marriage is not just about private relationships. It is about serving the public good by contributing to a stable society by providing a secure stable environment in which to raise children.

No apologies for stating this, no matter how "outdated" this sounds. Just because society "progresses", that doesn't mean that such progression is always for the better.

1 ONS, Personal and economic well-being: what matters most to our life satisfaction? 15 May 2019. www.ons. gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/wellbeing/articles/personalandeconomicwellbeingintheuk/ whatmattersmosttoourlifesatisfaction (accessed 3 September 2019); Robert H Shmerling, ‘The health advantages of marriage’, Harvard Health Publishing, 30 November 2016. www.health.harvard. edu/blog/the-health-advantages-of-marriage-2016113010667 (accessed 3 September 2019); Kay Hymowitz, Jason S Carroll, W Bradford Wilcox, Kelleen Kaye, Knot Yet: The benefits and costs of delayed marriage in America, National Marriage Project, 2013. nationalmarriageproject.org/wp-content/ uploads/2013/03/KnotYet-FinalForWeb.pdf (accessed 3 September 2019)

Harry Benson, ‘The Long-Term Benefits of Marriage: Evidence from the UK’, Institute for Family Studies, 30 January 2018. ifstudies.org/blog/the-long-term-benefits-of-marriage-evidencefrom-the-uk (accessed 3 September 2019)

K J Bourassa, J M Ruiz, D A Sbarra, ‘Smoking and Physical Activity Explain the Increased Mortality Risk Following Marital Separation and Divorce: Evidence From the English Longitudinal Study of Ageing’, Annals of Behavioral Medicine, Vol 53, Issue 3, March 2019, pp.255–266. doi. org/10.1093/abm/kay038 (accessed 3 September 2019)

Dixiechickonhols · 27/04/2022 11:11

Suprima yes my mil’s partner had no power of attorney/nok card/hadn’t nominated a nok. Hospital staff can only go on facts before them - he’s a widower I’m his only child (mil’s just his good friend) = adult daughter was nok. A marriage certificate would have trumped the daughter.

Dragon567 · 27/04/2022 11:20

Because of rights around death and illness? That's why we did it. We owned the house equally and both names are on the children's birth certs, but it was less of a faff to spend £120 at the registry office than to make sure we had everything lined up in case of death or illness, so we did that. Just two witnesses, no rings, no ceremony, no name changes, most people don't know we did it.

I can see both sides. You don't need to be married to have everything in place legally, but sometimes it's easier just to do that.

I think there is an element of smugness from some people though where they see marriage as an achievement rather than just a legal contract.

Dragon567 · 27/04/2022 11:21

Sorry quote fail - my last comment was meant to be in reply to someone asking why get married after having children.

Dragon567 · 27/04/2022 11:22

Suprima · 27/04/2022 11:00

Nope- I would be fucking embarrassed if the man who I loved and had children with had gone 26 years without wanting to buy me a lovely ring and tell the world that I am his wife, making us a legal family and giving me all of the protections of the law.

Show quote history

I would find it embarrassing to want those things, so each to their own.

Hrpuffnstuff1 · 27/04/2022 11:25

VeneziaGiulia45 · 27/04/2022 11:02

1 ONS, Personal and economic well-being: what matters most to our life satisfaction? 15 May 2019. www.ons. gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/wellbeing/articles/personalandeconomicwellbeingintheuk/ whatmattersmosttoourlifesatisfaction (accessed 3 September 2019); Robert H Shmerling, ‘The health advantages of marriage’, Harvard Health Publishing, 30 November 2016. www.health.harvard. edu/blog/the-health-advantages-of-marriage-2016113010667 (accessed 3 September 2019); Kay Hymowitz, Jason S Carroll, W Bradford Wilcox, Kelleen Kaye, Knot Yet: The benefits and costs of delayed marriage in America, National Marriage Project, 2013. nationalmarriageproject.org/wp-content/ uploads/2013/03/KnotYet-FinalForWeb.pdf (accessed 3 September 2019)

Harry Benson, ‘The Long-Term Benefits of Marriage: Evidence from the UK’, Institute for Family Studies, 30 January 2018. ifstudies.org/blog/the-long-term-benefits-of-marriage-evidencefrom-the-uk (accessed 3 September 2019)

K J Bourassa, J M Ruiz, D A Sbarra, ‘Smoking and Physical Activity Explain the Increased Mortality Risk Following Marital Separation and Divorce: Evidence From the English Longitudinal Study of Ageing’, Annals of Behavioral Medicine, Vol 53, Issue 3, March 2019, pp.255–266. doi. org/10.1093/abm/kay038 (accessed 3 September 2019)

Show quote history

Great posts.😊👌👏
Facts speaking loud and clear.

Ohsoworried · 27/04/2022 11:25

My god, I'm so glad we weren't married when we split up!

Dragon567 · 27/04/2022 11:28

Suprima · 27/04/2022 11:00

Nope- I would be fucking embarrassed if the man who I loved and had children with had gone 26 years without wanting to buy me a lovely ring and tell the world that I am his wife, making us a legal family and giving me all of the protections of the law.

Show quote history

Well OK, wanting the protection of the law I can agree with. But the ring and being called a wife thing - cringe.

Rosehugger · 27/04/2022 11:34

VeneziaGiulia45 · 27/04/2022 11:02

1 ONS, Personal and economic well-being: what matters most to our life satisfaction? 15 May 2019. www.ons. gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/wellbeing/articles/personalandeconomicwellbeingintheuk/ whatmattersmosttoourlifesatisfaction (accessed 3 September 2019); Robert H Shmerling, ‘The health advantages of marriage’, Harvard Health Publishing, 30 November 2016. www.health.harvard. edu/blog/the-health-advantages-of-marriage-2016113010667 (accessed 3 September 2019); Kay Hymowitz, Jason S Carroll, W Bradford Wilcox, Kelleen Kaye, Knot Yet: The benefits and costs of delayed marriage in America, National Marriage Project, 2013. nationalmarriageproject.org/wp-content/ uploads/2013/03/KnotYet-FinalForWeb.pdf (accessed 3 September 2019)

Harry Benson, ‘The Long-Term Benefits of Marriage: Evidence from the UK’, Institute for Family Studies, 30 January 2018. ifstudies.org/blog/the-long-term-benefits-of-marriage-evidencefrom-the-uk (accessed 3 September 2019)

K J Bourassa, J M Ruiz, D A Sbarra, ‘Smoking and Physical Activity Explain the Increased Mortality Risk Following Marital Separation and Divorce: Evidence From the English Longitudinal Study of Ageing’, Annals of Behavioral Medicine, Vol 53, Issue 3, March 2019, pp.255–266. doi. org/10.1093/abm/kay038 (accessed 3 September 2019)

Show quote history

It's chicken and egg - marriage appears to encourage stability/better health in society because of the type of people who get married, not because of marriage in itself doing something magical which stops people having heart attacks or getting cancer.

There are also other studies that say that women in fact are happier and healthier when they remain single, but marriage benefits men. Perhaps it would be better if men just married one another, now they are allowed to.

LemonSwan · 27/04/2022 11:38

Because it’s 2022 and there are many ways to structure your life to be financially protected and not married.