to think that some people just don't get poverty?

[Ohsoworried]

I've seen a few posts recently where people earning a fair bit of money (think around 100k a year) are complaining that they're struggling with money, don't have enough etc. I DO understand that it is all relative but equally, for people like me on a low low wage, in insecure housing, wondering how I'm going to pay rent, having to stop paying in to my pension for the extra £30 a month etc it does make me cringe a little. Things are a little better for me at the moment but it has been hard and my secondment is up soon so back down to low pay. When I left my abusive ex I was living in poverty. And when I mean poverty I mean in a refuge, no job because I had to relocate, no money for a deposit to rent etc. It's the choice between being able to downsize your house, not go on holiday for a couple of years, make sacrifices but still live comfortably etc, compared with not knowing if you'll be able to afford your bills. Of course I'm generalising and I'm sure there are people out there who are genuinely on high wages but have high mortgage payments etc who are struggling. I do sympathise. But I don't always think this is the case...

I mean, my mortgage is £1020 now for a 2 bed flat in London so I am in a better position than renters who have seen their rent for a room increase from £636 to in excess of £800 in a space of a few months. I have been making £1k overpayments so theoretically could manage an interest rate of up to 8 %. Most recent mortgages have been stress-tested in this way.

So while the mortgages given seem 'big' and crazy, the reality is that the lower income people have not been able to get a mortgage since the financial crisis and are in rentals where ironically the sky is the limit.

I know exactly where your DH is coming from as my own experience as a child in the 80s was almost identical.

My DF lost his job and stuggled for years to get another. DM working 3hrs 3 days a week as a cleaner as thats all the work she could get.

DM would also skip meals to ensure my brother and I were fed. There were days when all we could have for dinner was a few slices of toast because we had no food in. Free school meals, second hand poor fitting uniform and shoes. Minimal heating in winter (if we were lucky), and the debt collector rocking up every Friday for his money..

My parents did their best to shield us from it all, but my DB and I were very aware.

I now find myself getting anxious if I have to do a top up shop in the week and I'm constantly looking at the smart meter to see what our fuel usage is like... It drives my DP insane because right now, we're ok.

I sat down with him and told him about my childhood and why I get annoyed with the kids wasting food, leaving lights on etc. He says he understands where i'm coming from, but I think you're right OP. Unless you've actually been there, you have no idea.

It’s not at all as simple as any of that. Luck, privilege and skill plays a part in acquiring wealth but so does hard work. There are very few people who have made their own money (ie not been given it by others) who have not had to work hard.

hard work definitely is an important factor in acquiring wealth. It’s not the only one but it’s important.

we are lucky in the uk that we have free education and relatively good opportunities for everyone. It’s not perfect but I was able to go from a state school and council estate to being a wealthy professional. There was a lot of hard work involved!

YANBU I've mentioned this before but I remember a poster with young kids who was living in damp rented accommodation one wet winter, who was in despair about getting her washing dry. She had no radiators, nowhere to hang it. One genius suggestion was "Can't you hang it in the garage?"

FFS 🙄

The thing is though, it's all relative. I sometimes feel pretty miserable about how little we have - but realise that there are lots of people worse off.

It's the same in your situation. You might be in a refuge - but you have food, water and shelter. There are plenty homeless, on the streets - and plenty in third world countries to whom being homeless in the UK would be a vast improvement.

I know none of that makes you feel better, but you have to keep perspective and have gratitude for what you have, even if your situation is far from perfect.

Yup. I got "shamed" for only buying myself chips in a restaurant (when I'd paid for my DD's lunch, our drinks and more totally £45 already!). Pissed me off. I'm a lone parent and money is tight. No support. By skipping on some luxuries I survive. Person shaming me has mummy and daddy's trust fund and help with mortgage etc. Really stings.

For me it's never running out of loo roll, toothpaste, soap etc. I have to have stocks of these things to feel secure. Ridiculous but there it is.

It's a throwback to my upbringing.

Dh indulges me but doesn't understand at all.

Some have no frame of reference for it. They will say "I have no money" but they mean they only have what's in the bank, no cash, or no spare cash, or their savings are dwindling.

Can't really expect them to understand it when they have no frame of reference. It's not really their fault. Their parents provided them a good income home, which is great.

Thinking about it I haven't given my child a frame of reference for it either. I am not well off, but my child hasn't heard "we are too skint for food/heating" so I wonder if she will have one. In a way we hope not, right?

I can see that in London. Not sure what you'd need to earn to buy the £185,000 house, couldn't see any unmodernised so not sure what the equivalent of my first house would really be now. I would have thought a couple on NLW would be able to get that sort of mortgage but my days of applying for mortgages are long gone.

London and the south east seem to be a total nightmare pricewise, I mean back in the 70s London was more expensive than other parts of the country but I don't think the gap was so big.

Her whole family came over at one point. So your dismissal is incorrect. They've all done well. Most have gone back, even the cleaners and fruit pickers. Even her mum, who'd spent all her life picking potatoes found a job on a production line eventually.
DP cleaned the toilets at BMW in Oxford fgs. The only skill she had was being able to stand upright.😂
Her village was decimated.

Some British people waffle on about disadvantages. The road of life is littered with unknowns, however some Brits deliberately place obstacles in their way by behaving in a stupid manner with a poor mindset.

I started on Yts btw, I now earn up to 23000% more than I did then.
My brother on the other hand and his wife are still a pair of fiscally inept muppets. This is despite parental intervention and government assistance.

I disagree.

Being in a refuge is about as grim as it gets (have you even been to a refuge??), the only saving grace is that it’s better than being killed.

and no there are not loads of homeless people who would much rather be in a refuge, that just isn’t true. It is a myth that all homeless people want a home, that is an aspiration projected by those who only know housing. A lot of street sleepers prefer street life to temporary or permanent accommodation.

And it does not negate the refuge resident’s difficulties.

to somehow equate a refuge resident’s lifestyle with that of a wealthy person downsizing is absurd and ignorant.

A person in a refuge has nothing except temporary relief from being in extreme danger.

A wealthy person in danger has many more options available to them.

I hope most people read the papers? Like I don't rent but I just read from an article in the Guardian that someone's landlord is increasing the rent from £626 to over £800 (for a room in London which is a hop and skip from where I live). I mean, I have only rented in London for a year as a student so never experienced a rent increase in my life, but now I know from this article that this is an additional cost that renters have to bear in addition to the gas/electricity bills. Unlike vast majority of home owners who are on fixed rates.

It's all relative though isn't it?

We were on benefits when my first child was a baby. DH earned minimum wage and I was a student. We managed actually really well tbh. We got a lot of support - childcare nearly all paid, free prescriptions, help with rent, help with electric/gas/council tax etc.

Fast forward 10 years - DH earns ok money - £40k and I earn £20. We SHOULD be doing well. But since the pandemic when he lost his job (due to the nature of his work) and we have zero income for 6 months. Then 4 months ago he lost his job again and we had another 2 months out of work. Our direct debits are £2k a month. They're still £2k a month EVEN IF you lose your job. You can't just get rid of commitments. We didn't have £2k a month direct debits when we were on benefits .

Massively struggling tbh to get back on track. Savings are completely wiped out. We are at maximum overdraft. Credit cards maxed out. It's the 25th today and I have the £30 that's in my wallet to last til the 1st - even then I will only have another £50 to last another 10 days after that.

Oh and the £30 in my wallet is from yet another item in the house I've sold just to get cash.

So actually - poverty does not necessarily mean you live in a council house on benefits. Yes, we have a mortgaged home which technically we could sell if things got really bad but given how hard we've both worked to get this we are very reluctant to do that. So we plod on minding every single penny.

Just fwiw, I never minded every single penny on benefits.

I do think it's hard though if money is easy to empathise. One of my clients said the other day they were going on yet another 'cheap' holiday (think it's their 3rd this year - - only cost £2k, couldn't pass up the opportunity and I should get it booked too!

Clueless!!! Not been abroad in 12 years and highly highly unlikely to be going in the next 10. Kids will have to take themselves when they're grown up!

I hate that bit where posters bleat about "I earn a plenty but there's still not enough leeeeeft because of x y z"
But there are Options!! Money gives options!
These people are the one's most likely to be crap with money than the people on very low incomes!

I wouldn't even have an option to "have very little left after our mortgage on a 4 bed house in a nice area" because I can't get a mortgage! My credit score by the way is better than that of my factually rich ex and I'm debt free.
My rental expenses are higher than a mortgage would be by a considerable amount. That's what I call a poverty punishment!

He used to moan about about money whilst having a second property he could have rented out to generate a considerable extra income. He used to moan whilst having Aston Martin in his garage not driven about in years that he pondered loud about if he should sell. Something like that car could stop someone like me from being homeless!

THOSE are the people that don't get it! At all.

If someone here has a good income but are struggling for food (!) then the outgoings need to be seriously looked at by someone who is not inept.
When someone's on a low income that's a different story! There's usually Nothing to rejigg. Nothing to cut that would make a difference. No way to "shuffle".

My phone bill (I don't have a broadband or TV for financial reasons) is picked up by my ex husband by the way.
That's for those who think that my kid should not be allowed to watch a movie on a holiday night or me respond to my work e-mails cause we're, you know, poor!

A big mortgage is relative to what you earn

Our house (first time buyers last year in our early 40s) cost us 170k. It’s a shithole in a shithole but we were getting priced out of even renting in this dump and when the opportunity came up to buy, we had to grab it. We were running out of cheaper places to keep moving to, couldn’t keep on moving the children every time rents in an area we were living became unaffordable.

We luckily had some deposit so the mortgage the was for 155k.

To us, that’s massive and it keeps me awake at night with worry. Mortgage, bills and food takes up all of our income, bar £50.

To many other people, a mortgage of 155k is peanuts and they would be laughing and living the life of riley.

I know a friend who lives in such an area; a 3 bed house is like 100k. but she can't get a mortgage because while she earns above NLW, many of her roles have been contract roles. her DH works as a delivery driver so its harder to get a mortgage. She also rents a house for £700 a month and her outgoings are similar to mine despite me being in London and her being in Yorkshire cos she needs to run a car to go anywhere. Less savings cos there are more gaps in employment. That may not be representative of everyone; 2 NHS employees would do very well in such an area and possibly buy the nicest house on the street, but those areas are cheap for a reason.

On the other hand, in London/SE, more likely to have a couple in full time permanent jobs, probably professional. If you have parents in London/SE/from a rich country abroad, you are also likely to get parental help as their houses would have gone up in value.

The country is now so unequal that its no longer about what something costs. There is an excess of money out there. But yet there are people who struggle to eat and heat and not just a tiny minority- its 20% and soon to be rising. Its very messed up and I am shocked that the majority of the population don't care. Do they want to wait until its 50%.

Get yourselves over to the rishi sunak Web chat page and ask these questions!

I don't think it's a big ask to expect people to be aware of different people's situations. My 8yo has empathy and understanding that some families don't have what we have, and the reasons why. She also knows that other families have much more money. She understands because I tell her, I show her, we live in a diverse area, she sees at school that families are all different, she sees homeless people, she asks about their situation. We talk about the role of money and the factors that affect people's lifestyles (luck, background, as well as hard work) I really think an adult should be able to empathise too!

For the existence of other immigrants to even relate to my point, much less dismiss it, literally the entire society would've had to have emigrated. It's a silly argument.

Good timing. The rents are increasing so much all over the country! myy DH was skeptical about home ownership in the past, but I pointed out to him that instead of paying £1020 for a 2 bed flat (£500 per person) plus £150 service charges, we could be paying £800 per person to rent a 2 bed flat!

And this is in London, the worst performing region in the Uk in terms of house price/rent increases...

Well of course not as not everyone has lived in poverty. I think compassion for others is more important than lived experience though. I hate this emergent culture that you can't complain about anything because someone else has it worse though, eurgh.

I do this. I used to take toilet paper from work pre pandemic.

This, honestly I have sympathy for anyone going through a hard time no matter how much money they have but going through a hard time with no money is just as bad if not worse than having money. Wealthy people seem to say stuff like this all the time. It's not relevant in this thread either.

"I think most people work just as hard, if not harder, than wealthy people. They just get less (monetary) reward for their efforts."

Agree.
Have you read Polly Toynbee's Hard Work. The same point is made there.

The issue is that in any option, there are people being punished who don't deserve it whilst others manipulate entitlement.

They are people who do ok or are well off simply because of the sacrifices they made that those poorer could have made too. They gave up on things (less children, luxury of being a sahp or even working pt) to get where they are, whilst others have the same benefits purely due to rich parents willing to subsidise them who have never worked hard in their lives or had to make sacrifices.

On the other hand, you have poor people who are so because on the accumulation of poor choices and/or taking easier less demanding routes because it suited them at the time, whilst others have had very bad luck despite working very hard and making many sacrifices.

It's hard and probably impossible to operate an economy based on fairness and what people deserve. We can't abandon people who've made all the wrong choices, taken a lazy approach to life because all humans deserve a minimum of security and welfare.

We also can't continue to penalise those who've made many sacrifices, opted for delay gratification to then see all these being taken away from them because others need it more.

It's got to come down to some balance, but even then, there will always be an element of unfairness on either side.