lighthearted, are you middle class?

[mrziggycoco]

How do you define classes, personally, and are what class are you?

I read a book once that said if you are a professional (in one of the professions; teaching/doctor/engineer/surgeon/lawyer) you are middle class.

Similarly if you are a blue collar worker (you have a uniform for work) this makes you working class.

I wonder if being socially housed makes one automatically working class?

Thoughts? Just for fun.

I generally find the best way to tell if you’re middle class is if you care about class, never met a working class or upper class person who cares or discusses class, but it seems to be a hobby amongst the middle classes, along with snobbery about accents.

I would say I'm working class. Low ish income, UC to help us out (top op wages), rent and not own. But my parents when I was a child were deffo middle class it's just as I got older I went in a different direction

DH and I have degrees and post-grads. I’m a teacher, he’s an engineer. We own our home. I read extensively, we’re National Trust members and we listen to radio 4 so I guess we’re middle class AF. Historically both from working class backgrounds though, our Grandparents came from poor families but worked hard so our parents had a comfortable life.

@Butteryflakycrust83 that you feel poor with a household income of 70k is indicative of intergenerational inequality. Someone who bought their house for 100k in 1997 would manage fine on 70k per annum. My MIL is still working and so is my mum, 60 and 59 respectively.

When DH and I bought our London flat in 2019, we were on 70k combined income exxluding bonuses.we lived with his family for 3 years before buying, able to do this as we were in our 20s. We had overseas holidays and felt fairly comfortable. But then again no kids.

I think this is why IFS always looks at household size when determining which quartile your income falls under. They need to do a separate calculator for London! As well as allowing you to compute income after housing costs ...

I would say education, extent of your general knowledge or even just knowledge on subjects such as Greek mythology references, generally without an accent, all come across as middle class. Upper class are not defined by those features IMO as they don't need to fall back on education to get anywhere in life, they can come across as lacking in intelligence as a result of the cushioned lifestyle.

This is referring to class in the UK.

I find it interesting how many view class as a personal identity when class by definition is being part of a group. I think the shift from a group identity to an individual one is part of the confusion, and has also pretty much shredded much value in the concept.

Maybe it's why there has been such a push to make it a self-identified thing, but there isn't much solidarity or working together to improve anything when it's just declarations about how we grew up or how we feel compared to those around us.

I don't like the word class when referring to people's status in life. it's an out of date term.. I am not in any class. Being considered upper class, doesn't make you a better person, there are upper class people who are criminals in society.

I’m lower than working class, because I don’t work and I’m on benefits looking after a disabled child. Not married. Live on a council estate in a council house.

I read lots of interesting books, I like art and regularly go to exhibitions and galleries. I love the theatre.

Lots of stuff overlaps these days one size doesn’t fit all, I have friends from all kinds of backgrounds too.

@BiBabbles

I find it interesting how many view class as a personal identity when class by definition is being part of a group. I think the shift from a group identity to an individual one is part of the confusion, and has also pretty much shredded much value in the concept.

Maybe it's why there has been such a push to make it a self-identified thing, but there isn't much solidarity or working together to improve anything when it's just declarations about how we grew up or how we feel compared to those around us.

Yes, I agree. I totally understand people wanting to self define, and of course they can think anything they like about themselves. But I do wonder if maybe it could do a disservice to those who really struggle? Definitely many people who self-define as working class, would definitely be considered middle class by pretty much every sociologist in the land. Even if they have a working class background. But, I also understand people have a loyalty to their roots. I think it's changed, as has society generally. I don't think class is a measure I'd use to define myself these days. I'm just me, and no idea of my class, or lack thereof

[quote desiringonlychild2022]@Butteryflakycrust83 that you feel poor with a household income of 70k is indicative of intergenerational inequality. Someone who bought their house for 100k in 1997 would manage fine on 70k per annum. My MIL is still working and so is my mum, 60 and 59 respectively.

When DH and I bought our London flat in 2019, we were on 70k combined income exxluding bonuses.we lived with his family for 3 years before buying, able to do this as we were in our 20s. We had overseas holidays and felt fairly comfortable. But then again no kids.

I think this is why IFS always looks at household size when determining which quartile your income falls under. They need to do a separate calculator for London! As well as allowing you to compute income after housing costs ...[/quote]
Quite agree! It sounds loads (it IS loads) but a London salary comes with an equivalent London rental cost etc.

We are trying to hold tight that in a few years DD will be in school and we will have the nursery fees back that we can plough towards a deposit.

My best friends come from a middle class well to do area of the home counties and they know they have parental back up should things go tits up. I wonder if that's a big difference with class. Theres no financial support system in place.

Yep I would have thought so.

I'm a chartered accountant, went to university, as did my father. But you only have to go 2-3 generations to hit very solid working class, and I think class is supposed to be a bit sticky isnt it, so I might not be middle class yet. The kids might be

@Butteryflakycrust83 DH is a 4th generation Londoner with roots in east end, grandpa was a cabbie driver. But previous generations have all bought houses in London on modest incomes..DH is the first in his generation to buy a property and may be the only one for quite a while.. a lot of people on good incomes and who are middle class can't afford to buy, a lot of it is based on circumstances i.e..did you buy pre kids, did you live rent free, did your grandma die, do you have a partner etc etc

I do agree with the financial support aspect. But not everyone has generous parents even if they have the means.

For me it's not an issue of not wanting to be middle class it's more the fact that apart from now being very fortunate financially, not much else about me would be considered middle class once you got to know me. I've got a London accent, I'm not particularly well educated, most of my friends are from the same background as me, I'm a football season ticket holder, I don't go to the theatre regularly, most of my family are still in social housing, I've had family members and friends in prison and have grown up around criminal activity. I do like a nice restaurant though but I also like a greasy spoon and pie and mash is the food of the gods!
There is nothing wrong with being middle class, I just don't think I fit the description.

@DialSquare is a football season ticket a WC thing? i thought football was one of those things that transcend classes, everyone likes it. well everyone except me and DH...

Why does class matter to you so much OP? We really do need to ditch this class crap. What good does it do for anyone other than make certain people feel entitled to look down on other people?

[quote desiringonlychild2022]@DialSquare is a football season ticket a WC thing? i thought football was one of those things that transcend classes, everyone likes it. well everyone except me and DH...[/quote]
I think Football is considered mostly working class and rugby is considered more middle class although of course people of all classes like both. Particularly in the past before it became all about money. I used to be able to pay £1 to get in to the schoolboys pen in the early eighties.

tbh, I want to define 'class' by household income & financial security thresholds.

I find the quasi-religious tribalism of defining class any other way very peculiar.

On criteria I gave above, I would describe our HH as upper-middle which is what i grew up in, too. English DH would insist we are ordinary working class.

I'm solidly middle class, as were my parents and grandparents. I'm not ashamed about it. Very aware of my privilege and would never try to proclaim myself working class. What for? I'm not ashamed of my background.

What is interesting though is the lifestyle that comes with my middle class income. For comparison, my grandparents send 4 children to boarding school, employed a "daily" and my grandmother didn't work after marriage (1930s).

My parents sent 3 children to private school, enjoyed a yearly foreign holiday as well as UK holidays. DM had periods of being a SAHM.

Myself and DH earn an ok amount but cannot afford the lifestyle of parents/ grandparents. Still have a lovely life compared to many but the middle class stereotype of private schools and ski holidays is a long way from our reality.

I'm here on MN. I must be middle class, surely?

@UpsetApplecart what is comforting is that a lot of British people have better lives than their grandparents (the ones who were ex-miners), as well as access to free healthcare (there were people who died of illness in the 1930s due to lack of access to a doctor like Harry Smith's older sister). I fear that with the cost of living crisis, we are going back to the inequality of 1920s and 1930s, but hopefully it wouldn't be as bad as that, hopefull not too many people will starve or freeze to death or have to die while waiting for an ambulance.

Ditto for people in the colonies. my mum was born in 1964, 1 year before her country gained independence from the british. She shared a bed with 6 siblings and had to sleep under her baby brother's cot and would get sprayed with urine when he made a wee. The gdp per capita in my home country in 1965 was maybe 1/3 of the gdp per capita in the UK. Though my DH is a 4th generation londoner with working class origins and I am not entirely sure his grandparents in the East End fared much better than even the people in the colonies.

I was a lot luckier and was able to attend university in the UK (and my parents paid international fees). The average income in my home country (as of 2022) is higher than all parts of the UK (except London) with over 90% home ownership.

The UK middle class has become poorer through the generations as their purchasing power has decreased (as there is no longer an underclass to act as servants; the underclass now have a welfare state to fall back on no matter how flawed) but everyone else in the country (and also abroad) has gotten richer on the whole. there is still a lot of poverty and there is definitely a lot of injustice, but we have come a long way.

I am Scottish. I never hear people talk about 'class' up here.

But I used to get called a stuck-up, posh cow at my state school. The Kelvinside is strong with me.

Does that help?

@Thereisnolight

A surgeon is a doctor

Not necessarily.

@Allusernamesalreadyused

Pray elaborate

@Phos

I’d fight anyone who says I’m middle class. I read for a hobby, I have a career in financial services, own a detached house and our household income is 6 figures. But all those things (well except the reading) are just the result of good choices and a bit of luck. It doesn’t automatically make me middle class.

Do you have kids? It might make them middle class, if they're growing up with that privilege