Electric cars - so worried

[Northernlurker]

I keep worrying about being forced to buy an electric car when I change my car in a few years.
Reason being the long journeys and (mostly) self catering we love. In Scotland.
We need a range around 50% higher than the current max. It's no good saying charge it on the way if there are no fast chargers. Been looking at details today, even the fastest chargers need just over 30 minutes. Thousands of people drive UJ the Highlands and Islands annually. There won't be anything like enough chargers to cover that. We can charge overnight using an ordinary plug but it's not going to hit the max. Feel like we will spend the whole time worrying about finding a free charger in the middle of nowhere.
How is this ever going to work? It takes two Minutes to fill up a tank with petrol, electric is going to take hours!

[quote Lunar27]@CapMarvel

You're right to some extent but this is pretty irrelevant as we're currently not being forced to choose one over the other. The complaint is that EV's are too expensive to consider, the premise being that they'll always be this way. However, tech history would suggest that this isn't really true.

So in many ways you're not really comparing apples with apples, despite the seemingly similar name/shape/class of car. An electric Corsa isn't comparable with an ICE Corsa that's based on 100 year old technology. People will naturally try to make the comparison but it's not the right way of looking at it, given the research and manufacturing issues involved. You casually say it's 'JUST' the drivetrain but this is massive. Not insignificant. It's also disingenuous to compare the cheapest petrol 208 (actually £19k) with an electrified version as the performance will be totally different. To get the same level of performance you're likely to spend £25+k.

I appreciate that sounds oxymoronic but changing the drivetrain technology completely changes the car. If you put hydrogen drive in, the same would apply.

However, if you do make a financial comparison then it's been shown that an electric Corsa will still cost you less in the long run. It's just that the up front costs are different.[/quote]
The cost of them is going to come down of course but I don't think we are quite there yet in terms of them being a serious consideration for the majority. They will be at some point, just not yet.

Comparing the equivalent ev to ICE care - people don't care about why it's more expensive. The fact is they see the same car externally and internally, but one costs ~10k more and can only do about 160miles of real world milage on a full charge compared to 500 or so. That is a still a really hard sell, especially if you can't install a charger at home. Yes, the e208 is a nippy little bastard but for most people just going to the shops and back they don't really care that much. The upfront cost is the main consideration when you don't have the money easily available and used or new that cost is currently much higher for electric cars than it is for petrol.

To get one capable of towing our caravan would cost about £60k-£70k so quite a bit of difference to an equivalent ICE car.

Our requirements are for a car that can tow and also have genuine off-road capability. Currently, there doesn’t seem to be any EV that can do that, at any price, let alone one we can afford.

My utility company have just increased our dd again - up by £150 on what it was last year. There's a good monthly payment toward a car written off instantly.

An electric Corsa isn't comparable with an ICE Corsa that's based on 100 year old technology.

The electric Corsa isn’t based on technology that is any younger. EVs and hybrids have been around for well over a 100 years.

Average incomes of 32k and 28k are just that; averages. A lot of people will earn considerably less.

I cant afford a new car whether its ice or ev. So i suppose affordability is only relevant to those who were today looking at a brand new car and choosing between them. They might pick a smaller lower spec ev over a bigger fancier ice even if the finance was the same each month - particularly if there are incentives like lower tax and running costs in the interim.

@CapMarvel

No, we're definitely not there yet in terms of price parity but this is to be expected. Manufacturers have had to make significant changes to production lines, tooling, supply chains, design/engineering departments, research/development etc. As an engineer who's involved in bespoke products, it costs a fortune to make small numbers and this needs to be clawed back.

You can see the level of misinformation, genuine fear/concern and negativity, which in turn results in slow uptake. So manufacturers aren't churning out EVs in large quantities. This again pushes up prices. I guess it's a bit of a catch 22.

But back to the e208, the simplest analogy I can think of is like comparing a base model BMW 218i with an M240i. Most have zero interest in the range topping models, despite the same exterior, and that's fine. I appreciate everyone may end up driving an EV in future but if price is prohibitive now, then just wait. That's fine too so am not sure what the issue is.

@Onionpatch

I cant afford a new car whether its ice or ev. So i suppose affordability is only relevant to those who were today looking at a brand new car and choosing between them. They might pick a smaller lower spec ev over a bigger fancier ice even if the finance was the same each month - particularly if there are incentives like lower tax and running costs in the interim.

Speaking of tax incentives. My DH's Tesla is a company car, many of them seem to be. Thanks to his company's green car scheme the Tesla model 3 works out just a few pounds more expensive per month compared to his cheaper (by about 10k) petrol car. Once you add in savings using electric compared to petrol it's cheaper overall.

@lameasahorse

Not out of touch at all and depends on where you are in life. We were discussing the average person not being able to afford an EV. IMO it's possible, perhaps not for you but it is possible.

It's really irrelevant to be talking about people who earn less as EV's don't need to be affordable TODAY. They just need to be available and in increasing numbers, which they are. Quite why you're so hung up on price is beyond me but seems to be typical for EV discussions.

Recap: you have up to 20-30 years before you'll end up buying one, if you're only ever interested in the base model to get you from A to B. Remind me what the issue is exactly?

[quote lameasahorse]@Lunar27 Honestly the fact you think anyone earning 32k can commit to £240 every month for the next 5 years. just shows how out of touch you are. EVERYTHING is going up. Bills, council tax, rent, mortgage, food, childcare. And prices are forecast to keep rising.
And lots of people do not earn 32k. The average salary for the City I live in is 28k. Once you get outside of London, salaries tend to drop.
You say you are comfortable i.e. well off, so I guess the extra cost of living is pretty irrelevant to you.[/quote]
I earn 25k, I bought the cheapest new small car I could find on PCP for £150pcm with 10,000 annual miles. All but one of my 10 colleagues (same wage) have nicer cars than mine on PCP. When we spoke about it last year the next lowest monthly cost was somewhere between £250-£300, I can't remember exactly how much, just that it seemed a lot to me. The rest were spending more. I don't think £240 is out of touch.

People definitely seem to conflate their reasons for not wanting to buy an electric car now with reasons why they don’t think electric cars will be viable in a decade or two.

Yes they are expensive. Smartphones are a good comparison though. When they first came out, very few people had them and they were very expensive. Now there are lots of affordable options, either more basic models or second-hand/refurbished phones. Even people with limited budgets can probably find a way to get one. And they’re so ubiquitous that our society has evolved around them too and we now have lots of apps and things that make use of them.

There are lots of issues that will need to be addressed but I find it strange when those issues are brought up as reasons why electric cars wont ever be viable, rather than problems that innovative solutions will need to be found for. Things like charging without driveways, which I agree is a real problem but I am sure solutions can be found. Whether that’s lamppost chargers or something more innovative that hasn’t been thought of yet. (FWIW I live in a flat and don’t have a driveway but there is a charge point in my building’s car park that I use about once a week with no problems).

I find posts like the one upthread worrying about multi-storey car parks having to be remodelled to make room for chargers a bit pedantic and am not sure why people insist on focusing on those kind of details. Those car parks would probably need an overhaul in the next couple of decades anyway, and public spaces in general will just evolve to meet the new way people are driving and living, which will probably look very different to now in ways that we can’t even anticipate yet.

@ShuffleCase

Scotland has a fantastic national charging network, better than most countries in Europe. I have taken my EV to multiple islands and several trips to the western highlands. There’s an abundance of chargers. Never been a problem.

I was going to say this. They’re everywhere. But you’re not going to be ‘forced’ to buy an EV. Would be great if they take off though- imagine being able to have actual morals as a country because we aren’t dependent on russia and the Middle East!

If you count purchase price and costs over 5 years, a Tesla 3 is cheaper than a Toyota Camry.

I regularly drive long distances in rural Australia, and my next car will be a Tesla. I think YABU!

@lameasahorse

@flaglady has provided her anecdotal example, which backs up my point that we're all different. I totally accept that some people on an average salary might not find an EV affordable but there simply isn't one rule for all.

I'm in no way on par with those who talk about buying coffee. That's silly.

@etulosba

An electric Corsa isn't comparable with an ICE Corsa that's based on 100 year old technology.

The electric Corsa isn’t based on technology that is any younger. EVs and hybrids have been around for well over a 100 years.

Indeed, electric/battery trains/trams/buses pre-date petrol/diesel ones and were developing well, until the petrol/diesel ones came along and we turned out backs on electricity.

[quote lameasahorse]@flaglady I am assuming you have a partner earning decently? You certainly arent paying a mortgage and bringing up kids on 25k and happy to commit to another £150 per month as costs of everything is rising.[/quote]
I do have a husband who earns well but we have separate finances. Im not bringing up kids but I'm paying half the mortgage and 1/3 bills. As for the 10 other colleagues, their situations vary. Six are parents, some adult children, some teens, some pre-school, some young step children. Some have partners, some are single. All but 2 childless younger colleagues have mortgages. Despite the varying circumstances, they are all paying more for their car than what you consider to be too much for someone earning 7k more than us.

@user1497207191

You've just completed answered your own argument 🤦

Yes battery technology of some form has been around, but not in its current form and hasn't been implemented in passenger vehicles during the time manufacturers turned their backs on it!

That's kind of the point, and you made it quite nicely.

[quote Lunar27]@user1497207191

You've just completed answered your own argument 🤦

Yes battery technology of some form has been around, but not in its current form and hasn't been implemented in passenger vehicles during the time manufacturers turned their backs on it!

That's kind of the point, and you made it quite nicely.[/quote]
There were reasons they "turned their backs on it"!

@user1497207191

Yes, because the oil narrative and potential for making billions took over, obviously. Even now, the reluctance is strong as the big oil companies don't want the cash cow to end.