Electric cars - so worried

[Northernlurker]

I keep worrying about being forced to buy an electric car when I change my car in a few years.
Reason being the long journeys and (mostly) self catering we love. In Scotland.
We need a range around 50% higher than the current max. It's no good saying charge it on the way if there are no fast chargers. Been looking at details today, even the fastest chargers need just over 30 minutes. Thousands of people drive UJ the Highlands and Islands annually. There won't be anything like enough chargers to cover that. We can charge overnight using an ordinary plug but it's not going to hit the max. Feel like we will spend the whole time worrying about finding a free charger in the middle of nowhere.
How is this ever going to work? It takes two Minutes to fill up a tank with petrol, electric is going to take hours!

I'll be getting an elector car at the very last possible day I can. I love driving my manual car. Fuck automatic cars I hate them

My DH's electric car is very different to my petrol automatic. I much prefer the EV. It's quick at junctions and roundabouts whereas my car sometimes likes to sit and have a think about whether it wants to go then takes forever to work through gears and build up speed. It's pretty useless in busy traffic with small gaps, it's also useless when overtaking cyclists, especially now they sit in the middle of the road. The EV doesn't change gears, you just press the pedal and it goes as fast as you need it to (well ok, officially it goes from 0-60 in 3.1 seconds) . I feel so much safer in fast busy traffic that I'm actually starting to enjoy driving.

[quote lameasahorse]@BlackAmericanoNoSugar loads more people like me, now only shop online. This will continue to grow.[/quote]
True, but presumably you do have to go out from time to time otherwise you don't need a car.

There will be a shift away from the model of a relatively small number petrol stations in central locations serving a large number of people - you can put an EV charger literally anywhere you can run a cable to.

[quote lameasahorse]@BlackAmericanoNoSugar loads more people like me, now only shop online. This will continue to grow.[/quote]
You can still take your car to a car park or random charging point and sit on Mumsnet for 15-20 minutes if you need to charge. There's no law that says you must be shopping. It might become a thing where mums start pretending to take the car to a charging point as an excuse to get 10 minutes peace

But if you never go to work or the supermarket or any of the other hundreds of places where chargers are popping up then you don't really need a car anyway or at least not one with the ability to go anywhere.

@FirewomanSam

No problem and am glad you're enjoying your EV. I'm sure that will continue and giving the public network a practice go is definitely recommended.

IMO, the thing is not to get disheartened if your first experience on a long journey isn't 100% seamless. I've made mistakes and think everyone does at least once/twice. However, despite using my home charger 90% of the time, I've used the public network enough to have a good feel for what it's like. Mostly it's absolutely fine. For sure it's not perfect but have had very few issues.

I think my biggest issue with the public network is that there are a lot of different companies operating. New laws have forced them to offer PAYG but some are still requiring an account and for you to put some credit into it before you use their chargers. This is likely to be more of an issue for early adopters like myself but I have £10 in a few accounts and some I'm unlikely to use again. This wouldn't be feasible for people on a budget.

But on the plus side, I've visited a lot of Ecotricity chargers (now taken over by Gridserve) where I've had a completely free charge. You wouldn't get this with petrol/diesel. We even have some free chargers in my town so a nice touch and make use of it when I can.

[quote lameasahorse]@FirewomanSam nearly all ecv drivers seem to be like you. Short journeys so that a weekly charge at home on your driveway is fine.
I do a LOT of miles every week. From Scotland to Southampton. Charging is an issue for me. 300 miles in a day is not unusual. I am already aware of areas with fewer petrol stations and keep the car topped up. I would need to charge most days.[/quote]
I wouldn't say this necessarily. I do mainly short journeys now but pre-pandemic I was doing 18k miles pa, visiting client sites. Mostly it was a 60 mile round trip every day to a main client, which is a lot of driving by most standards. This is compared with the average commute, which is supposed to be around 20 miles.

My EV was purchased through my business. Since I've had it (3 years) I've driven from Milton Keynes to Newcastle, York, Brighton, Wales and even holidayed in Cornwall. My EV has a measly 120-130 mile range so is definitely possible and whilst a slight inconvenience, isn't nearly as bad as you think.

Newcastle is 240 miles away from Milton Keynes so just one stop mid way, one at the destination and one on the way back. If I'd bought a Tesla it would've been one charge at the destination, which wouldn't have been any hassle at all as it would charge during a meeting.

You're an outlier if driving from Scotland to Southampton. However, in a modern EV you could also stop once on the way, once at the destination and once on the way back. Still not a hassle really. If you're doing business miles I'd imagine the saving in BIK and fuel costs would easily make up for the inconvenience but stopping once on a 500 mile journey is hardly an inconvenience.

Charging every day isn't an issue at all, if you have a driveway. It's like plugging in your phone and an automatic process. However, if you don't have a driveway then perhaps an EV just isn't for you right now. No problem there as you can keep a diesel for the next 30 years but this doesn't negate the potential for millions of others to get one.

@BlackAmericanoNoSugar

I imagine that there will be chargers in places that people are stopping anyway, like shopping centres or supermarkets. In much the same way as many supermarkets currently have petrol stations. It's a passive money maker for the supermarket if they charge slightly more than they are charged for electricity. Where there is double line parking (back to back/face to face) one charger would be reachable by 6 car spaces. My local shopping centre shows the number of available spaces on each parking level, plus the number of available disable parking spaces, they also show availability at the end of each row. It wouldn't be much effort to also show charger availability. The same with motorway service stations, they will make plenty of availability throughout the carpark when the demand is there.

Trouble is that a lot of the older multi story car parks are very tightly spaced, i.e. only just fit 2 cars between the pillars and short spaces. Plenty of times, there's literally no room behind the car between the car and the wall. So, realistically, to put in a charging station/point, you're looking at reducing the spaces to just one between the pillars to allow space for the charger. That could seriously reduce the number of parking spaces which is a problem in itself for all types of car.

Easy enough in a open car park, but even then, you're undoubtedly going to have a reduced number of spaces overall. In our local Tesco car park, they've just put in a couple of charges and it's reduced the "cluster" of spaces from 6 to 4. Extrapolate that and you're losing huge numbers of spaces in a typical car park, so even open car parks will need to be completely remodelled which isn't cheap as it usually involves moving barriers, kerbs, etc.

I think charging stations will evolve too tbh.

@user1497207191

The problem with older car parks is modern cars, which are huge by old standards. Mostly it just isn't a thing and virtually every charger I've been to has been retrofitted to a regular existing parking space.

I'm not quite sure why some charge points seem to have extended chevrons like parent/child spaces as there isn't any need but has been chosen. Perhaps it's a conscious thing to clearly differentiate and to keep people out, who don't own EV's.

Sadly one of the biggest problems for EVs are selfish people who park their ICE cars in a charging spot because they're too lazy to park further away. I'd imagine that the future will just revert back to regular spaces, which works perfectly well.

I'm not quite sure why some charge points seem to have extended chevrons like parent/child spaces as there isn't any need but has been chosen. Perhaps it's a conscious thing to clearly differentiate and to keep people out, who don't own EV's.

Interesting! I haven’t noticed this but will look out for it now. Is it so that you can run a cable around the back of the car without another car driving over it?

We feel the exact same and are unable, due to covenants to put electric chargers in. We make monthly round trips of 600 miles plus. Do not stop on motorways except for refuelling. How many hours would that put on our journey. We also have a small holding and require a vehicle with a 3 .5 tonne towing capacity.

@FirewomanSam

This is one such charger point, which seems to be typical of Lidl supermarkets. I don't know why, as rapid chargers don't require the additional space, just access to run a cable to your charge port.

Personally I've never seen another car drive over a cable as they're normally just long enough to reach your car and no more.

It's true that you do need space, if your charge port is on the side of the car but it simply isn't an issue and I've used enough to say this from experience. If you have a front charge port then it is even less of an issue.

I have an Audi E tron and an ev home charger or pod point. My range is around 200 miles which covers me for 95% of my daily travel requirements. I drive to my Dad's twice per year some 320 miles each way; motorway services provide rapid charging. Even if using a petrol car for this long distance journey, we would stop at least once en route , since its not sensible to drive for 5 hours without a stop off. People need to get their heads around this.

Trouble is that a lot of the older multi story car parks are very tightly spaced, i.e. only just fit 2 cars between the pillars and short spaces.

That's a problem for any modern car. I live near several multi-storeys where 2 cars fit in 3 spaces. Occasionally I can fit my little one litre petrol car between two as long as they aren't SUVs. Charging a car doesn't require more space than opening a door so they wouldn't need to widen the spaces any further than for a modern petrol car. We have a new Aldi near us with modern sized spaces (feels positively luxurious compared to the old Tesco next door!) and they could easily use the same spot for charging.

stopping once on a 500 mile journey is hardly an inconvenience

It is if you've got to be there 40 minutes instead of the 10 that you have available.

That's if there's a charger available and you don't have to queue.

There's also the cost of charging at service stations, which isn't much far off that for petrol. Plus people seem to think you'll be buying food and drink while you're there.

So as well as having this hugely expensive car, you'll be forever spending time and money at service stations wiping out any savings you need to make to justify the higher purchase price.

Yet again Mumsnet completely misses the needs of lower income people.

Battery technology will evolve & we will possibly see 5or even 6 hundred miles on one charge, it’s progressing industry just as mobile phones were the size of a house brick when they were invented, look where they are now,& I think the same will happen, so no need to worry, electric vehicles will take over & the rest will follow, another 10 yrs & it will be a whole new landscape as always

Well, it isn't compulsory to buy food and drink at a service station?

'Not far off' the cost of fuel is quite a bit less than, in fact, especially at the moment. A recent big jump in the cost of charging means my boyfriend reckons about £15 for his Corsa to fast charge at a service station. The unbelievably painful prices of liquid fuels at the moment don't get me very far on £15, and I don't have the option of a cheaper source of fuel at home. He uses a local street charger overnight instead of charging from a home plug due to the cable on the pavement issue, it's about £8 for a full charge there.

Yes, he has a car and a job and place to live. So do quite a lot of people.

Yet again Mumsnet completely misses the needs of lower income people.

I think you're trying to use lower income people to validate your argument because you see them as an easy tool to use.

The cost of an electric car today doesn't reflect the cost in the future. It might be more, it will probably be less (notwithstanding inflation). Petrol prices might go down because the demand isn't there and countries want to sell their reserves before it stops being used altogether. Then again, they might all get together and decide it's better to restrict supply to keep prices artificially high (like the diamond market). It's another thing we don't know and have no control over. What we do know is that petrol cars won't suddenly be thrown on a scrap heap forcing people into the EV market, it will be a gradual shift. Mass adoption by those who can afford it will lead to more investment and increased manufacturing which will lead to more choice for consumers and a more varied (and affordable) second hand market. Mass adoption will also lead to increased investment in generating our own electricity and moving away from dependence on other countries. Those countries being the ones where our petrol money funds obscenely wealthy people who openly keep slaves because they know we can't/won't do anything (those slaves aren't even lower income, they're zero income) and the country with the madman who shall not be named.

This webpage from Imperial is quite an interesting read on pollution and poverty by the way. It's a statement on what they've been doing but it references some interesting studies www.imperial.ac.uk/stories/pollution-and-poverty/

@BarbaraofSeville

stopping once on a 500 mile journey is hardly an inconvenience

It is if you've got to be there 40 minutes instead of the 10 that you have available.

That's if there's a charger available and you don't have to queue.

There's also the cost of charging at service stations, which isn't much far off that for petrol. Plus people seem to think you'll be buying food and drink while you're there.

So as well as having this hugely expensive car, you'll be forever spending time and money at service stations wiping out any savings you need to make to justify the higher purchase price.

Yet again Mumsnet completely misses the needs of lower income people.

I can't tell if you're joking (looks like it) but I think 30 minutes would be the least of your worries if your margins are that tight!

In the UK a 500 mile journey will take upwards of 10 hours, given you're likely to pass through two lots of rush hour traffic, road works, accidents etc. I'd imagine you might want to take 1 or 2 breaks too.

I don't know many people who would set off on a 500 mile journey needing to be there in a massive hurry. Sounds unfeasible or an extremely rare situation. I'd also take a packed lunch to save money as I don't usually buy food/drink at the services.

You're right that electricity at service stations is higher but not as high as petrol/diesel. One thing you're neglecting though is that people might only pay for 1 charge as they'll leave the house with a fully charged battery, using cheaper domestic rates (I'm still on 5 pence/kWh). Whereas petrol/diesel is either expensive or more expensive.

But please explain how lower income people will be driving a 'hugely expensive car' as you describe? Andy why would they 'forever' be spending time/money at service stations? Doesn't stack up TBH.

@flaglady.

That's really interesting so thanks for the link.

Reading it reminded me of the huge elephant in the room that no one is really talking about. PM2.5, PM10 and nanoparticles are bad news and affect all vehicles. In some ways a bit less with EV's due to regenerative braking but some EV's are heavier so the tyre wear is slightly greater.

It's totally obvious really, given we all replace worn tyres, brake pads etc etc, but never really think about where all that rubber and brake pad goes. Sadly straight into our lungs. So while EV's do solve local emissions particles, the other stuff remains.

My guess is that it'll be the next big thing that needs addressing but is currently not on the radar.

I was just talking to DH about this and we were thinking that we'll have to have quick-charge-portable batteries - not just because of people who live in flats or terraces without allocated parking - but also because once everyone is using electric cars, the queues for charging points will be terrible. I don't even like queueing for petrol which generally only takes a couple of minutes to put in - so having to wait while someone take 45 odd minutes to charge their car isn't really an option (and much more patient people than I am will get irrirated by it). Though even if they get it down to 10 minutes it will still be awful so I think swapping out the battery is going to be the only option.

And yes, the issue around tyre "emissions" is exercising a few minds too. Of course, we recycle them into pathways in green areas - which perhaps isn't that great an idea with microplastics. Everything we do has some sort of bad impact, it seems :(

I can't understand why you'd hate an automatic though, you can concentrate on driving and forget the gears though we did have an automatic which was a bit of a pain as it forgot to change gear at times, I used to drive it as a clutchless manual which got around the problem, but my current hybrid uses continuous variable transmission which is lovely.

BarbaraofSeville
'stopping once on a 500 mile journey is hardly an inconvenience'

It is if you've got to be there 40 minutes instead of the 10 that you have available.
That's if there's a charger available and you don't have to queue.

Oops posted too soon - meant to say that if you are not prepared to stop for more than 10 minutes in a 500 mile journey this makes you a danger to yourself and other road users

You won’t be, it’s all an absolute load of bollocks. I’ll be sticking with my 4x4 pick up, we’re rural and I won’t be getting an electric car until they’re as convenient

But please explain how lower income people will be driving a 'hugely expensive car' as you describe? Andy why would they 'forever' be spending time/money at service stations? Doesn't stack up TBH.

They may need to charge more often if they have bought an older EV.

Nissan estimated that battery capacity will be approximately 80% of original capacity after five years.