To think that just LTB doesn’t work once you have children?

[manysummersago]

I have to talk generally here. I know people claim that LTB isn’t often trotted out on here, but I think posters are often urged to think about leaving, even if it’s phrased in ways like ‘why are you still there / what do you get from this / I wouldn’t accept this.’

But once you have even one child, it isn’t as simple as just ending the relationship. I know a lot of people realise this but I think so many people believe that that’s that, you just live your life pretty much as you did before you met him just with the addition of your children.

However, this isn’t the case at all. You still have to manage contact and co parent to an extent. You have to continue to manage relationships with the family and try to agree to a shared approach to problems, which isn’t always easy when a relationship has ended.

I am sure a lot of people manage it admirably but it’s hardly stress free and for many people the remedy is probably worse than the disease if you like.

So - AIBU? I’m not talking about abuse or violence but marriages where perhaps the spark has gone, perhaps there is some selfish or thoughtless behaviour, perhaps you don’t have much in common.

I agree, OP. When you have kids, leaving your partner often means swapping one set of problems for another. It means your kids may have to deal with becoming part of a blended family, and those are generally minefields. "You need to model happy relationships for the children" always gets trotted out, but that's built on the assumption that both parents will end up in happy relationships.

I've seen women on MN advised to leave just because the relationship isn't as exciting as it used to be. I think that shows unrealistic expectations of long-term relationships.

@manysummersago

Someone else said that, not me.

I don’t see any harm in it being used as such, and I don’t think there’s anything wrong with offering advice either.

What I am saying is that if you choose to end the relationship (general you) it isn’t the case that life will automatically be any happier and I do think that gets missed sometimes.

I don't think anyone chooses to end a relationship with kids involved on a whim. They think about it a lot.

Perhaps they will come to regret the decision, much like they regretted starting or staying in the relationship. That's the nature of decisions. Honestly, I think they usually stay for fhe lifestyle more than the kids anyway. Give them a jillion pounds and a mortgage free home and the decision would be much easier. I'm not judging. Times are hard.

Nobody ends their happy, functional relationship because someone on MN typed, "LTB". Almost nobody posts about their relationship on here unless it's hanging by a thread or dead already. If it's happy and healthy and you just had a small tiff, you dont generally start consulting the vipers over it.

And if you just want a whine and no advice, meet a friend or ring the Samaritans. You can't demand it off a zillion anonymous users and it would kill the site anyway because it would be so boring.

I definitely don’t think anyone leaves on a whim, but I do think people are pushed to do so (and sometimes if they won’t answers turn quite hostile) without full consideration of what the impact on the OP might actually be.

a whine needlessly unpleasant, especially given the Samaritans original purpose was to try to prevent suicides. I realise not everyone who contacts the Samaritans is suicidal but I think referring to them as ‘whining’ isn’t really on.

It’s always easier to keep the status quo. And the sheer volume of organisation it takes when kids are in the mix too makes it daunting: contact, life admin, how they’d cope with 2 houses, maintenance etc etc etc.

But it comes down to this: if you’re unhappy in your relationship are you prepared to sacrifice your happiness to keep the status quo? Note I don’t say for the children’s happiness; it doesn’t follow that children will be happy in either situation.

My personal feeling is that we are on this earth for an incredibly short time. People who are in unhappy relationships need to decide if they want to spend their time being miserable and, if they don’t, they either need to get help or split up.

And intentionally or not, the ‘it would be so boring’ comment is revealing. People often do want a fast paced drama, but life isn’t like that.

Wanting fast drama, people immediately taking advice - that’s largely what attracts trolls, and then people start troll hunting, genuine posters are treated with suspicion … I think THAT is more likely to ultimately kill the site!

Why can’t people say they wouldn’t put up with something they wouldn’t put up with?

My father once told my mother a saying "Don't listen to your friends when they are saying to leave him... because when it's their turn they are not leaving"

As an adult with my circle of friends I swear by it too. People come with a lot of hypothetical talk but simply can't do the walk themselves.

I don't think anyone is saying it's simple. Ending a relationship is never simple. But you have to think about what your children are seeing. Your children will know you're not happy, they might think that's what a relationship should look like. As someone whose parents stayed together 'for the kids' let me tell you it can make for a miserable childhood. As much as having separated parents has its own challenges, there's a lot to be said for at least both parents being happy separately, and definitely a lot to be said for the children having a happy and calm home environment with no arguments and no atmosphere.

So no, LTB is never easy, but if you need to leave you need to leave, and you can handle it in such a way that minimises upset for the kids.

If things are very bad, and have been very bad for a good while, it is always good to re-assess everything.

Of course leaving isn’t easy. Often,in the short term it is far harder. But the question is about the much longer term for yourself and your children. Sometimes, the emotional, financial and or it’s always struggles of leaving, given time can result in a much better life for the kids and yourself. Life for most is long. If you’re in your 30s with small kids, you’ve probably got 50 years ahead of you and your kids might have another 15 years at home. You have to take the lomger view and not just the shorter one.

And yes, LTB is a daft thing to say about one-off incidents usually. And yes, the vast majority who are in long term relationships shouldn’t give up easily and should have some kind of counselling first…lots of relationships can be saved and when kids are involved, in most cases it’s worth trying. Lots of people don’t or by the time they go for counselling, have already decided. That’s a travesty in my view.

People suffer from inertia. Taking action to communicate about problems, or seeing a relationship counsellor, or possibly finally leaving…..all of it is a struggle and people often prefer a bit of head in the sand. But again, you have to but the bullet to bring about change and it’s worth it, because suffering for years….well what’s the point when you have the ability to move your life forwards?

I agree.

It's not until I had kids that I really understood why they didn't just LTB.

I get the chance to meet someone new and be happy angle I really do.

But if you dont hate each other and are kind to each other, you have the freedom to pursue your hobbies etc. him not pulling his weight in terms of childcare or chores can be managed, I'd rather that than not seeing my kids everyday.

Also it can be really difficult to split financially! I couldn't afford to buy with my half of the equity, so I'd be back renting a tiny flat. I'd have to go back to work full time and move DD to a cheaper nursery. For example I'd still be doing all the wife work / life admin, cleaning of a house, the majority of the childcare.

Everyone has their own line in the sand I guess.

If I was desperately unhappy, there was abuse I would abosolutly leave, but it wouldn't be easy.

At the end of the day mothers usually want what's best for their kids (and them!) and sometimes they are willing to compromise by staying to achieve what they see as the best outcome (for now at least!).

My ExH was the one of left me and our very young DC (for OW). That man bullied me for 20 years, the vast majority of them after he had left.

I wish the courts and the system could protect women from vile bullies like him; but they don't. In fact they allow men to use the courts and the system as part of their bullying campaigns. The police, social services, CAFCASS, the CMS and even his own barrister could see exactly what a horrible bully he was - but no-one could actually stop him.

I'm now left quite broken from it all. The DC, now young adults, are damaged too from the years of enforced and unpleasant contact, the lies, manipulation and fear (he bullied them too), the let-downs, his repeated posturing for OW after OW, the procession of short-lived 'step-siblings' and 'step-mothers', and his lack of love.

A fucking idiot can see how damaging this is to children. And their bullied mothers. But still it goes on. And on.

The DC despise him. They have both had therapy and will need more. I do not imagine that they will ever see him again now they are adults - so what the fuck was that all for?

@JamieLeeCurtains

It’s a separate point but I do know so many posters naively think that if the marriage was ended on the grounds of abuse, the children will be kept safe by the courts, and they just aren’t.

@manysummersago

And intentionally or not, the ‘it would be so boring’ comment is revealing. People often do want a fast paced drama, but life isn’t like that.

Wanting fast drama, people immediately taking advice - that’s largely what attracts trolls, and then people start troll hunting, genuine posters are treated with suspicion … I think THAT is more likely to ultimately kill the site!

The revealing thing is that you think anything constructive or not entirely what OP wants to hear must be drama and trollery. A site where the only responses are "what are men LIKE!" and "me too hun" is very boring and largely useless. It won't keep users and it won't engage. Seeing a range of views and suggestions is interesting and useful, especially when you get the occasional person who even knows what they're talking about.

Vent, whine, moan, whatever, they're all the same thing. The point, as you do know, is that the Samaritans exist to provide nothing but a listening ear. MN isn't the Samaritans and it's both unreasonable and very foolish to expect everyone in the place to listen to it without offering any actual viewpoint. It's a discussion forum. Use it to "vent" at your own risk. You don't get to tell everyone else how to use it. And whatever you think of the culture here, it's not doing the numbers any harm.

The revealing thing is that you think anything constructive or not entirely what OP wants to hear must be drama and trollery

I’ve said the absolute opposite of this.

People are free to give whatever advice they like.

However yes I am suspicious when MN say LTB on Sunday and by Tuesday the locks are changed. Someone genuine would likely be far more reticent, if only to get things organised.

Vent, whine, moan, whatever, they're all the same thing

No, I don’t think they are. I think whine and moan have extremely unpleasant connotations and I don’t think they should be used in association with the services a charity provide to assist those suicidal and despairing.

I agree, I “LTB” only now he doesn’t see or bother with our children at all. Hasn’t seen them in 18m it’s actually much harder on my own now as never get a break and doing it all alone. So no leaving wasn’t better for me.

However yes I am suspicious when MN say LTB on Sunday and by Tuesday the locks are changed.

Those are almost always trolls. Come on.

I think whine and moan have extremely unpleasant connotations and I don’t think they should be used in association with the services a charity provide to assist those suicidal and despairing.

It should be obvious that I was being a bit glib, since you were claiming that "venting" is ^exactly^ what a parenting forum, with sections on everything from politics to TV and a zillion-strong userbase, is for. It plainly isn't. I know it's very tempting to seize on something moralistic to try to win an internet debate while looking like a superior human, but the only person actually seriously trying to weaponise the Samaritans here is you.

People often complain that LTB is trotted out too often on MN and they may be right. Still, a more pertinent point might be why so many women are in such miserable relationships, and with so little support, that they need to come on here in the first place. Women are much, much more likely to stay in a miserable or abusive relationship than leave it, so while LTB may not be the site's finest feature, I'm not worried about a legion of wonderful marriages being torn asunder from it. In fact, many of them are so conditioned by the time they get here that they don't realise how deeply abnormal and abusive their situations are. A website full of "oh I KNOW!" isn't going to help them.

I just googled "anonymous venting" and it seems there are loads of sites and apps if that really is what you want.

I left my ex in a situation like you describe in your op. No abuse but spark was gone and from my perspective it was over. We have two dds. I’m much happier now and so are dds. Neither really remember their parents being together and me and my ex make an effort to coparent amicably.

So I don’t agree that “LTB doesn’t work when you have kids” at all. You describe a situation where you seem to think it would be alright to stay (no abuse but spark gone) but then describe the alternative to staying as leaving your child to be abducted, abused etc.

In reality if it’s not that bad to stay but you don’t want to, it’s likely to be better to go. Who wants to be trapped in an intimate relationship with someone when neither of you wants to be there anymore? Not me. Being alone coparenting has to be better.

Of course what is different is finances. It’s hard financially to be a single mum. But if that’s what you mean, say that. I can tell you it’s a struggle but worth it.

In my opinion if the relationship is over, it would be torture to stay. Better to go your separate ways and coparent amicably.

@DrSbaitso are you actually reading my posts here?

I am suspicious - yes, they are trolls. That is what I was saying.

If people want interesting fast paced threads then they will be trolls. If they want real threads, where people do sometimes just vent and sometimes do listen to advice and sometimes don’t and sometimes can’t take the advice - well, they are more likely to be genuine.

I don’t know why you keep telling me I can have an anonymous vent somewhere I don’t really want one, but if you feel so strongly MN is the wrong place for them, contact them, not me.

My only point here is that LTB if you want but it won’t solve everything and may just cause more complications.

What is interesting is that the voting is overwhelmingly leaning towards me not BU but the replies indicate otherwise and I think sometimes threads can quickly become dominated by a minority of posters with an agenda

I'm bored out of my mind with DP but he's a good man and a great parent, so we're bumbling on for now.

I wouldn't leave unless he was actively unpleasant, because being bored with him is much more preferable to me than spending half my time without DS.

Most of my friends are going through much the same. I only have one friend who adores her DH and loves spending time with him. For the rest of us, it's a compromise we're happy to make for lots of reasons.

[quote manysummersago]@DrSbaitso are you actually reading my posts here?

I am suspicious - yes, they are trolls. That is what I was saying.

If people want interesting fast paced threads then they will be trolls. If they want real threads, where people do sometimes just vent and sometimes do listen to advice and sometimes don’t and sometimes can’t take the advice - well, they are more likely to be genuine.

I don’t know why you keep telling me I can have an anonymous vent somewhere I don’t really want one, but if you feel so strongly MN is the wrong place for them, contact them, not me.

My only point here is that LTB if you want but it won’t solve everything and may just cause more complications.[/quote]
Yes of course I am. Hence my response to your assertion that MN is the ideal place for a "vent". It absolutely isn't. Do so at your peril.

Yes, we have trolls on here. It's a famous site whose userbase is mostly women aged 40+. That's a red rag to a particular type of twit, but on the plus side, they're mostly easily recognisable because they aren't half as original as they think they are. They haven't ruined the place for most of us.

LTB isn't always the best course of action, although for a lot of these stories, it's hard to see how it could be much worse. But I really, truly don't see a legion of terrific relationships ruined by MN. If LTB is trotted out too quickly here, "make more effort", "that's just life", "he's great when he's not drinking" and so on is trotted out too quickly everywhere else.

It's great to have a place where women can share their real life experiences, good and bad, of ending their relationships.

Any woman who judges that she'd be worse off out of her relationship than in it isn't going to do it because she saw a fantasist on MN.

@manysummersago

What is interesting is that the voting is overwhelmingly leaning towards me not BU but the replies indicate otherwise and I think sometimes threads can quickly become dominated by a minority of posters with an agenda

Ah yes, an "agenda". AKA, a difference difference opinion. Everyone with a viewpoint has an "agenda". That's pretty much what it means. Why start a thread if you have no "agenda"?

My "agenda", such as it is here, is that MN isn't designed for "venting" and you aren't likely to get what you want from it if that's your purpose. And that I'm not unduly worried about the prevalence of LTB because while it's certainly not always the best solution, I don't think there's a legion of women who were pushed into it by the power of MN.

What I am saying is that if you choose to end the relationship (general you) it isn’t the case that life will automatically be any happier and I do think that gets missed sometimes.

I don’t think I’ve ever seen a thread where people suggest leaving won’t be hard and bring its own challenges.

What I do see, again and again, are the ‘boiled frog’ posters, who’ve become so accustomed to low-level frustrations that in accumulation ramp up to serious issues in their relationships that are trapped and minimising the effects of all their partners borderline abusive and unkind behaviour. They have to believe he’s “a good man” with just some somewhat annoying but liveable with quirks. But then from an outsider’s perspective (MN posters) we see the pattern, join the dots.

What is interesting is that the voting is overwhelmingly leaning towards me not BU but the replies indicate otherwise and I think sometimes threads can quickly become dominated by a minority of posters with an agenda

I don’t think anyone has an agenda. That would be weird - why would they want people they don’t know to LTB? People do give advice from their own perspective and coloured by their own experiences, however. Sometimes that can be hard for people to hear if it’s an uncomfortable mirror to their life, one they’d rather not look into.

The voting agrees with you because most people agree that “just leave the bastard” doesn’t work once you have children. It’s the “just” that everyone is agreeing with - that it’s not simple. Not that posters should stop recommending LTB.

There's an easy hack. If you're planning to stay with boring DH but want to moan about him, mention a good looking man in your office who sends flirty messages to you.

You'll be told the grass isn't greener, he has dirty underpants too, and that your kids childhood will be ruined if you prioritise your own indulgent sexual thrills.

I don’t think anyone has an agenda. That would be weird - why would they want people they don’t know to LTB?

It was just a dig at me. Pay it no mind.

@Villagewaspbyke

I left my ex in a situation like you describe in your op. No abuse but spark was gone and from my perspective it was over. We have two dds. I’m much happier now and so are dds. Neither really remember their parents being together and me and my ex make an effort to coparent amicably.

So I don’t agree that “LTB doesn’t work when you have kids” at all. You describe a situation where you seem to think it would be alright to stay (no abuse but spark gone) but then describe the alternative to staying as leaving your child to be abducted, abused etc.

In reality if it’s not that bad to stay but you don’t want to, it’s likely to be better to go. Who wants to be trapped in an intimate relationship with someone when neither of you wants to be there anymore? Not me. Being alone coparenting has to be better.

Of course what is different is finances. It’s hard financially to be a single mum. But if that’s what you mean, say that. I can tell you it’s a struggle but worth it.

In my opinion if the relationship is over, it would be torture to stay. Better to go your separate ways and coparent amicably.

I agree with all this. In reality if it’s not that bad to stay but you don’t want to, it’s likely to be better to go. Who wants to be trapped in an intimate relationship with someone when neither of you wants to be there anymore? Not me. Being alone coparenting has to be better.

If your relationship is ‘good enough’ to stay but you don’t want to because you’d ultimately be miserable and frustrated all your life - i.e. your partner is fundamentally decent and wants the best for the children - then coparenting amicably should be possible, after a bit of short-term misery.

If they’re not decent enough to be able to communicate on a coparenting relationship then you’re almost certainly better off out of there anyway.

Financially it sucks and that’s unavoidable.