Which child can you choose?

[Absolutelyfuckedup]

Dd 17 suffering frequent mental health crisis. On medication that isn't working. Getting more and more angry. Police have been involved twice recently. Life is absolutely shit trying to deal with this.
Ds 12. Suffering more and more. Tonight dd has punched and kicked him for being a dickhead. Her words. He was been.cjeeky to me slightly then huffed to his toom, typical almost teenage behaviour which would be dealt with appropriately by me and his dad.
Dd is increasingly out of control and we are at our wits end. Dh can barely sleep. He's ill because of it. I'm up and down and carry on putting a brave face on. Ds has no choice but to live through this upheaval. Dd is clearly unwell. On waiting list for private therapy as no hope on nhs.
I am drained mentally. What the hell do you do. Youngest needs protecting before he is seriously damaged but dd doesn't deserve to be removed from home either. Help!

• Imagine , what were you doing at 15, meeting mates, going to the cinema into town

She went into lockdown! The most important time of your life, going from child to being independent, feeling a bit more freedom! These are the kids that suffered the most. In a week it was taken from them.*

As did many many other teenagers, who are also struggling with mental health issues (mine included), but that doesn’t give ANYONE the excuse the punch their 12yr old brother. Unless she is schizophrenic, then even with poor mental health she will still know right from wrong. And if she is that unwell that she cannot distinguish that then she should be sectioned and receive proper medical help and support.
The OP is not, I presume, a mental health professional and likely has zero experience in supporting people like her dd, and she needs professional help. Sometimes you have to do the drastic to get it.

Protecting your young son from physical harm is essential.
It’s probably screwing with his mental health too, living with older sibling who assaults him.
Please don’t even consider sending him elsewhere
He needs your love and support.
Your DH sounds close to breaking point.

Your daughter sounds like she needs professional help, beyond what you can offer. Especially if the police are involved. That’s really serious.

Thank you for the answers

I am sorry - nightmare. Of course it’s not ok but I am sure if you knew the solution you would have solved it by now. You are doing your best. She is clearly unwell. For me with my daughter it was working out what was happening before the bad behaviour. When does she act up the most? At night after school? It’s likely she is feeling over whelmed / tired. She’s basically having a giant toddler tantrum - a child having a tantrum can’t control their emotions. Think back to strategies in the toddler years ie avoiding her getting overtired would hopefully help. With my daughter she was worse just after school - we all agree to just leave her be for 1hr after school so she can unwind and process her day.

Please google inattentive adhd and see if that applies to her.
Also if she is getting physical - think of other ways to release physical energy. Get a mini indoor trampoline and encourage her to jump when feeling frustrated. Encourage her to sing when she feels like yelling.

We had a similar situation. Children's social care were involved , and CAMHS for my eldest. My eldest does have additional needs and serious mental illness.

The crisis reached a head in 2016/7, so perhaps services were not quite as stretched then. It reached the point of Child Protection Plans, because the eldest son's behaviour was affecting his brother, and my youngest son's retaliation (they were closer in age - 17 and 14/5) was affecting the eldest. Both boys were unable to attend school at this time (extreme anxiety and other MH needs). This made other services get involved, and it also made the situation almost impossible to manage at home.

At 18, my eldest moved into a residential home, for people with mental health difficulties. It was local and we met up very regularly and spoke daily. He is now living in a supported flat and is making steps toward independence.

Every situation is different, and I am skimming over a very complex situation. However, important factors which led to my eldest moving out of the family home are these.

My eldest son needed and wanted to move away from home but services are so hard to find for a 17 year old (this is a national problem). This is why we had to wait until he was 18.
Children's social care were involved at the highest level because both sons were in danger.

The residential unit was very close to where we lived, and had an open door policy. My eldest was able to get the support he needed, and to have lots of contact at home.
My youngest son's mental health suffered.

The effect that challenging behaviour has on a family and on individuals in the family cannot be underestimated.

Sorry to add, but as a parent, I experienced the same dilemma. I felt like I was encouraging my eldest to leave, when I should have been supporting him (he was very unwell). I know now that going into residential therapeutic accommodation was the right thing to do for all of us. My sons, now young men, are enjoying friendship and brotherhood again.

@Timeforausernamechange22

My instinct is protect your 12yr old. They are still a child who needs protecting and who has done nothing wrong yet are being punished. The 17yr old is old enough to know right from wrong, mental health struggles are no excuse for physical violence against her younger sibling. Have you tried having her sectioned? Harsh but if she’s a danger to herself because she can’t control herself due to MH then that is the route you need to go down.

It’s a terrible situation but you must protect your 12 year old, mental health isn’t an excuse for violence.

Also consider that you may risk further SS intervention as your eldest sounds like a safeguarding risk to your youngest.

She’s basically having a giant toddler tantrum - a child having a tantrum can’t control their emotions. Think back to strategies in the toddler years ie avoiding her getting overtired would hopefully help. With my daughter she was worse just after school - we all agree to just leave her be for 1hr after school so she can unwind and process her day. I'm really sorry but l can't agree with that at all, as that places zero responsibility on her for her actions and has family walking on egg shells around her. If she was 'disturbed' in her alone time and assaulted them, would it then be their fault?

I would tell dd that if she lays a finger or any other body part o a member of the household again, you will be calling the police. And MEAN IT. FOLLOW THROUGH and be prepared to dial 101 and tell them your dd is attacking her family. They can tell her that they are issuing a warning this time but if there’s a next time it’s off to the cell with her. This should most likely work. Make sure she knows if you do this again I will call the police in you. It’s totally unacceptable. Mh issues or not.

Everyone who is suggesting that OP can just call the police and have DD carted off to a cell, or "put her in care" is completely deluded and has no clue what they are talking about.

We have a very similar situation at home. DS is 14 and DD is 12 and lots of things that OP has been through we have too. DS has been arrested, we have made 999 calls, nothing ever really changes. If you can access CAMHS it makes no difference. We have asked for DS to go into care (not a decision we take lightly as he is adopted so has been in care) or for some respite care, there is nothing available and SW will usually push for the child at stay in the family as that is the cheapest option.

If you've never dealt with these services you assume they are there to help you but I assure you they are not. Police in particular are terrible - they come out quickly but when they are you are a nice affluent white family they think "nothing to see here" and take no action.

OP message me if you want to.

@thisisnotarealavo I would agree. It is a sad fact but things had to escalate to a pretty high level (Child Protection Plans) before action could be taken, and then it came in the form of support from a superb social worker in Adult Social Care when my eldest was 18.

Our experience with the police was pretty mixed. Some were terrific, some terrible. We were not an affluent family, so assumptions about parental competence were made.

I will reiterate, though, that the situation OP describes is one that really needs attention, and if the 12 year old is being hit by his sister or is living in fear of his sister's behaviour, there are safeguarding issues.

Does your daughter punch and kick others or does she reserve that just for her kid brother?

@user1471457751

Does your daughter punch and kick others or does she reserve that just for her kid brother?

Agree with this, how is she doing at school/college/work if she is attending any? I also think that you need to move away from the Ds has no choice but to live through this upheaval thats so sad to read, like you are telling him he has to accept being assaulted.

My cousin got put into foster care because she was displaying the same behaviour as your DD. She used to punch my other cousins and once held a knife to my auntie’s throat. It was far better for all that she was removed.

@Vipersea

Beyond help!!!! Jesus are you serious!

Imagine , what were you doing at 15, meeting mates, going to the cinema into town

She went into lockdown! The most important time of your life, going from child to being independent, feeling a bit more freedom! These are the kids that suffered the most. In a week it was taken from them.

Yes obviously protect your youngest, that goes without saying. It can be done, we have lived through it but fgs DON'T put your 17yr old child in care. You be a parent! Grit your teeth, man your husband up but do not take the easy way out! These other people commentating any different are not parents or don't deserve to be and I am raging at their views. You do not get to give up if you are a parent full stop!

Firstly what other people were doing at 15 isn’t really relevant because this girl is 17. But I had a baby. I certainly wasn’t knocking lumps out of 12 year old kids. She isn’t a little girl, she’s a young woman.

It’s not acceptable and can’t continue. I would speak to social services and see if they can help you, because your son being assaulted can’t be allowed. They might be able to support with something as simple as offering him respite care to relieve his stress - living in a home where someone might punch or kick you takes a toll above and beyond the physical.

@ittakes2

I am sorry - nightmare. Of course it’s not ok but I am sure if you knew the solution you would have solved it by now. You are doing your best. She is clearly unwell. For me with my daughter it was working out what was happening before the bad behaviour. When does she act up the most? At night after school? It’s likely she is feeling over whelmed / tired. She’s basically having a giant toddler tantrum - a child having a tantrum can’t control their emotions. Think back to strategies in the toddler years ie avoiding her getting overtired would hopefully help. With my daughter she was worse just after school - we all agree to just leave her be for 1hr after school so she can unwind and process her day.

Avoid getting her over tired? Yes, maybe put her down for a little nap after her din-dins.

She’s 17 and assaulting a child. This is beyond encouraging her to cuddle up in the quiet corner for a bit of relaxing time.

I agree that the assault should have been reported to the police. She needs more intervention and further police involvement can get you that. If she wasn't female, she would be in danger of killing her sibling, as many young people have. Violence can't be ignored. It might be appropriate for the DD to live elsewhere because the younger sibling should not have to live with domestic violence. He needs a Child in need plan.

I do sympathise, we had a similar situation with our ds's although they were a little older by the time we hit crisis point. Our eldest is autistic and it became impossible for us all to live together. I did not find that any authority was helpful and we decided that the only answer was to find our own solution.
We were lucky in that we had the finances to help support him to rent a bedsit. Four years later the relationship between us all is okay, he will visit for a weekend sometimes then happily return to his own space. I call on him regularly and check all is well and it works.
If something like this is not financially possible could you find some other way of creating a separate space for your dd. A caravan on the drive or a summer house in the garden maybe.

Horrible position to be in.

I can only tell you what I would do. I'd send the youngest to stay with grandparents for their safety. I'd stay with the older one and OH. I'd take time off work (both myself and OH) and would put every ounce of energy into the 17 year old to get them medical assistance and social care. I would call 111 every day, go to GP every day, call police when she was being violent, call social services at every incident, constantly be on the phone for mental health Crisis team.

Unfortunately, if you want help in this country you have to very strongly advocate for yourself with the relevant services. That means being a pain and insisting on help. "No" is not an on answer!

Id go and see the youngest, one at a time as regularly as possible. I'd try and spoil them and spend time with them when I was with them, take them for a fun afternoon.

Obviously my plan relies on having enough money to take unpaid leave and grandparents who would help. Fully appreciate I'm very lucky and not everyone is in this position.

I think the question of who else she assaults is an important one.

If her loss of control were due to her MH issues then presumably she wouldn't think twice of the setting or the person she is attacking.

If it is only him then I would protect him over her.

. I'd send the youngest to stay with grandparents for their safety
So the younger dc gets sent away from his home, parents, school and friends as a result of being assaulted by his sibling? How will that help his mental health?

If you live in a house you own, could you build a studio/wooden cabin in the garden for DD?

It would need a lounge/bedroom, micro kitchen, and a toilet/ shower room.

Do you know all the surrounding issues, that may be causing all this kind of behaviour with your two children. And so something yourself and your Husband can talk about with them, and try and get to the bottom of all these issues with both children.