To be a bit pissed off about colleagues' lack of enthusiasm to return to the office?

[spuddy56]

About 6 months ago I joined a large organisation in a fairly large team (15 ish). Since covid the company have introduced flexible working. Whether or not you go in is down to individual people and their managers. Barely any of this team ever go into the office, particularly those who worked there pre covid, although there is a newer bunch tend to go in once a week and seem to be developing really positive working and social relationships out of it. My particular role doesn't overlap theirs at all but does overlap the with the more longstanding members who are refusing to go in. Although I get on well with everyone as far as I know (but who really knows from behind a screen!), I'm also aware that they are having social meet ups without me and it just feels so hard to get a grasp on the culture and the ins and outs of working with particular people. We currently have a high turnover too, and I wonder if people feel less loyalty because they are not forming face to face relationships? The managers want to encourage creativity and collaboration but this seems to difficult to me when there's no casual conversations and bouncing around of ideas outside of zoom and emails.

Am I being unreasonable to think that people should head in to the office occasionally or do we just need to get used to this?

P.s. I actually love working from home and the flexibility, I just think some face to face collaboration would be helpful too.

YANBU. ‘Older’ staff members had the benefit of being present in the office with their colleagues to make all the connections, pick up the tips, learn the unofficial ways of working best in your company - and now they want to pull up the draw bridge and not provide the same support and benefits to ‘younger’ staff members? Because they’ve already acquired all that insider knowledge that they need and they feel no obligation to help you achieve the same? It’s pretty “I’m all right Jack”. It’s not about being sociable: it’s about having the opportunity to acquire the same level of insider knowledge and skills as older colleagues - the things that they learned from ‘older’ colleagues when they were new to the company.

Energy bills rise by an average of £15 a week today. If working from home saves more than that in petrol costs or bus/train fares, who can blame anyone for preferring to work from home.

With over 70,000 people testing positive for Covid each day, also currently the fewer people you meet face to face, the better.

However, when in the office I agree the time should be used to form and maintain good business relationships, and where the work needs it, creativity.

I've just left a role in an organisation that was full of a bunch of twats that thought it was too dangerous to make a half hour train journey.
Had no concept that as a back office function visibility and availability (1 or two days a week, not FT) needed to be an important part of the role.

new organisation is lots more positive, my main reason for choosing them

Personally I prefer hybrid working. I saw post Covid that there were two separate teams developing, those who worked at home, and the office workers, which was not great for morale, so we instigated at least one day a week office working, which has got rid of any cliques, and led to a stronger team. Hybrid working is the new normal I feel.

YANBU. If jobs were office based before the pandemic then people should be returning to the office, at least some of the time. The idea that they can refuse because they prefer working from home is ridiculous. Many businesses are being flexible and are offering an hybrid system, but employees can’t have it all their own way and expect to keep their jobs.

The problem here is you’re actively being excluded, OP. If the people you work with the most (I.e. the ones your work overlaps with) are meeting as a group without you then that is exclusionary behaviour and you should speak to your manager about this.

They are utter twats for excluding you. When we meet as a group, everyone is invited, and we also invite smaller teams that don’t work closely us with but that otherwise may get forgotten / side lined.

Speak to your manager.

I totally understand what you mean. There are benefits in going to the office. I have 6 team members (out of 11) that started during covid and they still haven't met the whole team face to face. I have met them once when I popped to the office. It must be hard and it's hard to be accessible to people you've never met.
However, I have no plans to go into the office until they make me

I’m established in my role and company so transitioning to WFH was easy - I had existing networks of people and could get on with my job. However I appreciate that it’s much harder for newbies who don’t have this so have made effort to be more available for informal bouncing ideas around conversations.

My firm has a lot of trainees and recognised that their development was far behind where they should be so has mandated 60% in the office/40% WFH. I’d be quite happy WFH most of the time and popping in occasionally but I understand why they are doing this.

Another organisation I know didn’t keep on any apprentices/trainees during lockdown because they were not learning on the job. It would be a real shame for the next generation if they were not given the opportunities because they were not building experience.

You want different things from your work environment like a social life that includes your colleagues. My dh has worked for his company for 20 years and in his current role for the last 5. He goes in once a month for planning meetings otherwise wfh. He worked from home for two days a week prior to covid so is used to that way of working. He enjoys it. He is at a different stage in his work life to you though. He needs to leave at 7am to make sure he definitely gets to work on time because traffic is horrendous and after he finishes at 5pm I can expect him home at 6.30pm. He doesn't miss the commute and neither do I.

@workwoes123

YANBU. ‘Older’ staff members had the benefit of being present in the office with their colleagues to make all the connections, pick up the tips, learn the unofficial ways of working best in your company - and now they want to pull up the draw bridge and not provide the same support and benefits to ‘younger’ staff members? Because they’ve already acquired all that insider knowledge that they need and they feel no obligation to help you achieve the same? It’s pretty “I’m all right Jack”. It’s not about being sociable: it’s about having the opportunity to acquire the same level of insider knowledge and skills as older colleagues - the things that they learned from ‘older’ colleagues when they were new to the company.

But you can do the same via teams.. My team manages no problem with that, it's just asking a question online versus to your face. We've had people join us during covid and if they need to know anything, they ask, just as we would if we were in the office.

We can phone each other too and teach each other how to do things as well. Wfh does work for a team as long as they do actively take part. The problems will only come when people don't bother, they are assholes.

What channels do you have to communicate? We do hybrid working but we have a Teams board for lobbing in any questions of the type you'd have asked in the office. 'anyone know who I should ask in finance', 'where will I find x' kind of thing and for sharing general little funnies, and the what you having for tea type chat.
We also have a morning catch up daily.

I don't think you can force others to want to come in but maybe you could suggest to your manager some better ways to feel part of the team?

We had a few new people start in lock down and I definitely felt I knew them and we had a bit of a relationship before I ever actually set eyes on them.

I run a team of 15 and it’s really tough because as much as one person wants to work from the office, there’s 2 more wanting full time from home. I agree with you that for new starters and staff retention, work from home is a disaster.

I did a huge consultation project in January to figure out what our future working structure would look like and the general consensus was people wanted 1-2 days in the office and the rest from home. The way I’ve worded it for my lot is that ‘the expectation is that you will work from the office 2 days per week on average, one of those days being a Wednesday to give the whole team chance to be in at the same time’. Wednesday was picked because it was the day everyone was happiest with.

Everyone comes together in the office for a Wednesday which is when we have our team catch ups, knowledge shares, one to ones with me, training etc. I get absolutely NOTHING done on a Wednesday other than team stuff but that’s ok, it means I get it all done and can focus on other stuff the rest of the week.

For their other day in the office, some come in as/when but most plan it around when they need to collaborate with each other and go in to sit together while they crack on. Others will only come in once a week for a few weeks and then they’ll have a big project on and you’ll see them in the office every day for a couple of weeks. They can flex it.

Out of 15, I have 1 who’s in the office every day and that’s because his wife and young kids are home all day and he doesn’t have a separate space to work out of the way.

I will say, our company were brilliant right form the start of the pandemic and everyone was provided with a couple of screens and the company even reimbursed them for desks and additional electricity usage all the way through. The electricity help is stopping now (written off against the savings on commuting), but if you need additional tech or anything the company provide it which I think has created the culture where work from home isn’t treated as an easier/ doss option.

I had worked from home, more or less every day, for 3 years, but decided to move on for a hybrid role in December. The hybrid model was the attraction for me.
I absolutely love the ability to do a couple of days WFH and will never give that up, and am so much more productive from home but, like you say OP, I pick up little bits of insight by being in. I also think a bad day in the office surrounded by workmates is less isolating than a bad day at home on your own. And i enjoy the feeling of heading out of the door in the morning in a work outfit, and then walking through the front door at the end of the day to my house which is not my work environment. The £160 a month commuting is a sting though!

@Calmdown14

What channels do you have to communicate? We do hybrid working but we have a Teams board for lobbing in any questions of the type you'd have asked in the office. 'anyone know who I should ask in finance', 'where will I find x' kind of thing and for sharing general little funnies, and the what you having for tea type chat. We also have a morning catch up daily.

I don't think you can force others to want to come in but maybe you could suggest to your manager some better ways to feel part of the team?

We had a few new people start in lock down and I definitely felt I knew them and we had a bit of a relationship before I ever actually set eyes on them.

We have that too and it seemed to work well but since we've had a couple of new people join the team it's obvious how much it relied on relationships built before we went to remote. They've struggled to engage with the conversation, particularly the more jokey, friendly side of it - I think that's really hard to do with people you've never met.

I started a fully remote role during the pandemic and have had absolutely no issues bonding with colleagues I've never met IRL, or bouncing ideas off them, or being creative, or collaborating. I actually find it easier to navigate these things remotely than in an office. I remember being in my early 20s in a busy office with everyone obviously doing their own thing and my manager in a meeting, and not knowing something that looked like it should be simple, and sitting there sweating because I didn't know who to ask, who I'd annoy by interrupting, or whether it would make me look thick. Now I just pop a question in one of our chat channels and someone pops the answer back.

Multiple chat channels are key! We have one for specific work stuff, one for bouncing random ideas around as and when they occur to us, one for shooting the shit with no managers allowed. I also find small talk easier online - you can post/reply at your own leisure rather than getting interrupted.

The reason this role is remote is because it's international and the majority of my colleagues are overseas, but I used to be WFH and self-employed before the pandemic. That was no barrier to networking or socialising with people in my industry either - I networked a lot via email chat but also it was pretty common to suggest going for a coffee or drink with people whose brains I wanted to pick (and when I became more established I was also happy to do that sort of one-off casual mentoring with younger people in the industry).

By contrast I was actually awful at networking and socialising in an office context - either focused on actually doing work, or tired because of the commute, or physically uncomfortable because it was too hot, or just seething and grumpy because open-plan offices are hell.

YABU

It's great that you want to go into the office but it's not the job of your colleagues to provide you with company

Sorry but it's not.

They've struggled to engage with the conversation, particularly the more jokey, friendly side of it - I think that's really hard to do with people you've never met.

I honestly find the joking, friendly stuff much easier online with people I've never met. I find it incredibly awkward IRL and tend to be very silent instead.

As much as I have worked with some colleagues who I had absolutely no desire to know outside of work I met two of my closest friends at work. I have known one for 30 years and one for 27 years. I also met DH at work.

@QueenofDestruction

And prize for hypocrite of the week goes to you - you are only interested in being friends with long-term colleagues with whom you “started in the trenches”. Big ol’ FU to all young people and new starters who now miss out on not just socialising but learning from and interacting with more experienced employees.

I can’t believe you didn’t compute what you’d written: you might as well have just said “I’m all right, jack.”

YABU, I’m afraid, and it sounds like you need a job in a different company or culture.

I’m fully remote and have been since pre-Covid. My time is tracked for different clients and it’s so clear how much my productivity drops when I’m in the office – I pop in occasionally – because of all the informal this and that and bits of coaching here and work chats and whatnot. Those things may have benefit but they also directly impact my output, and then I have to catch up on my output and either work overtime or at an unsustainable pace.

Plus we have offices all over the country so even when I do go in, I just end up on Teams talking to people elsewhere – only instead of doing that comfortably from home, I have to have headphones in a cold office.

I have mixed feelings about this! I've been wfh in a role that pre-pandemic I was full time office based and I'm mostly happy, I have the choice to go the office whenever I want to and I'm old enough and established enough to be effective either way. However, I'm about to move teams to a brand new role and tbh the thought of learning it completely remotely scares me! Selfishly I'm really hoping that my new team have a bit of a hybrid thing going on.

@GormenghastWhat

Oh no. Creativity. Collaboration. Bouncing around of ideas. How does an idea bounce around? Do they bounce off other people?

Thank all the jesuses that this is why I am so glad to be working from home. Ain’t nobody bouncing nothing off me or my colleagues, thank fuck for that.

I find this interesting because I get great energy and motivation from other people. I’m on a working group at the moment which has met four times virtually and once in person, and the in-person meeting was hugely helpful in equalising out everyone’s contribution and workload. If I were the op I’d feel a bit out on a limb, being a relatively new joiner and big feeling fully integrated. I’m used to work bring a community and being entirely remote does take away a sense of collaboration for me.

I like going into the office in theory. But, in practice, it’s less convenient than being at home and I’m on teams all day anyway because no one is based in the same city as me. The multi-site nature of the business means the office feels like a cavernous, inconvenient call centre.

I started this job in the pandemic, fully remote. But the return to office stuff doesn’t help me forge connections in any meaningful way.

@Indicatrice

The problem here is you’re actively being excluded, OP. If the people you work with the most (I.e. the ones your work overlaps with) are meeting as a group without you then that is exclusionary behaviour and you should speak to your manager about this.

They are utter twats for excluding you. When we meet as a group, everyone is invited, and we also invite smaller teams that don’t work closely us with but that otherwise may get forgotten / side lined.

Speak to your manager.

Thanks, it is fairl enough that they are meeting socially with friendships that pre date homeworking. I wouldn't expect to see them in a social capacity. I do know that work topics were discussed and it's difficult to know work conversations are happening face to face but not in an office, only in social environments. I'll admit I find that frustrating.

@workwoes123

YANBU. ‘Older’ staff members had the benefit of being present in the office with their colleagues to make all the connections, pick up the tips, learn the unofficial ways of working best in your company - and now they want to pull up the draw bridge and not provide the same support and benefits to ‘younger’ staff members? Because they’ve already acquired all that insider knowledge that they need and they feel no obligation to help you achieve the same? It’s pretty “I’m all right Jack”. It’s not about being sociable: it’s about having the opportunity to acquire the same level of insider knowledge and skills as older colleagues - the things that they learned from ‘older’ colleagues when they were new to the company.

This, so much. It’s one thing for those of us who have had a couple of decades to get bedded into working, have plenty of contacts anyway, know how our organisation works and all that jazz. It’s another thing for people starting out in a new job or starting work for the first time.

I prefer wfh. I can do my job fine and have good catch ups on Teams. But that’s an essentially selfish POV, both for my firm and for people starting their careers. We benefitted from learning from our peers, we need to find a way to help others have that experience too.

Personally I’d say hybrid work is the way forward, maybe with a set day a week or fortnight for everyone to try and be in. We do that at the moment and it seems to be working out well.