to think it should be financially rewarding not to fly

[blameitonthecaffeine]

I know there's probably no way round it but it annoys me that not flying is so much more expensive than flying.

After 2 years of not going abroad, I felt too guilty about the environmental impact to jet off again this summer so we've booked a holiday in Greece and are going there via trains and ferries.

Per adult, (children cheaper obviously) it has cost me around £350 for the train tickets and £140 for the ferry. So total £490.

I had a look at flights and a cheaper end (but direct) flight, with add ons of hold luggage and booking the seats would have been about £175 per person.

I'm very fortunate that I can afford this choice but really, it's hardly surprising that flying is so popular is it?!

Is there a way of making other transport options cheaper do you think or is it just the way it has to be?

I'm not even sure trains are that much better than planes after all this faff, time and money! It's 48 hours of travelling instead of around 4 for a start! Although we can see interesting places on the way (and build up more costs with additional nights accommodation!)

What's your name, Michael Palin ?.

Nde- I'm just flummoxed at this food fixation. I have to eat every day I'm alive, you know 🙄

OK, waking hours vs flying- now, this is just for me: Flying: Drive to station half an hour, train to Bristol 3.5 hours, bus Temple Meads- Bristol Airport half an hour, allow 2 hours for a short haul international check in. Flight 3 hours 15. 45 minutes to clear security , and I have no idea where Nice airport is relative to the town, but let's say at least half an hour on an airport bus to get into the centre. That's 11 hours.

Train: Half an hour drive to the station, 5 hours on the train to London, half an hour on the tube, arrive an hour in advance for Eurostar, 2hrs 15 to Paris. Allow an hour to cross Paris on the Metro, then you're at the Gare d'Austerlitz, boarding the sleeper train. Zzzzz, wake up in Nice, and the price of a night's accommodation saved. Total waking travel hours: 10hrs 15 minutes.

(except I'm breaking the journey and having a day in Paris).

Gowithme

Yes, that's right. Still way better than 4 people flying though.

@EmpressCixi

It’s not that important for general people to stop flying altogether. Really it isn’t. Planes are the lowest CO2 per passenger to get from point A to B for all long haul flights. It’s short haul flights you should avoid.

The diesel from trains and ferries are much more polluting when you take into account the NO2 and particulates which are a much stronger greenhouse gas than CO2 alone. If you’re travelling long distance, it is often more CO2 per passenger between origin and destination.

The blanket flying bad, train good is too simplistic.

Long distance trains are usually electric, not diesel. If you're travelling from most parts of the UK to most of Europe, you will probably be on electric for almost all of the journey.

I have travelled from North Wales to Poland, Czech Republic and Switzerland by train (including transiting through Germany/France/Belgium). The only diesel trains I travelled on were for the first 70 miles to Crewe, and then on a few local trains in Poland (about 50 miles). The other 800-1000 miles to each holiday was electric.

Even the Trans-Siberian route is 100% electrified now, though I wouldn't advise a Russian holiday just now.

Long-haul, yes flying to the US is better than going on the QM2, but mostly because the ship is a floating hotel and entertainment complex. It is however possible to book a passenger berth on a cargo ship, which would make your emissions tiny thanks to the economies of scale involved in shipping. So if you travel on a cargo ship, your CO2 emissions are about 2% of the equivalent flight. They're quite comfortable apparently, just make sure that you take a good long book for entertainment.

And that last point is the main issue though, unless you've taken a career break, a gap year, or are retired; flying is the only practical option for a long-haul journey because none of us have the annual leave to be spending a week at sea in each direction. So the only way to keep one's emissions down is to not go at all.

I'm not going to be a spoilsport and refuse everyone the chance of a trip-of-a-lifetime to see the Grand Canyon, I'm instead suggesting that long-haul flights need to only be for those special experiences, not for thrice-yearly golfing trips to the Caribbean or shopping in Macy's.

Ships are very bad for the environment too.
Cruises are far worse than planes. (I know you are not going on a cruise)

Thing is travelling alone - sure just grab whatever
But if you travel with a partner, friend, family, children…. On a 4 day travelling.. eating together and enjoying it and sharing food is part of the experience

@Bananabutter

Nothing wrong with flying. It’s quicker, easier, cheaper and a far better experience than any other mode of travel.

@Bananabutter "A far better experience"? I take it that you're wealthy enough that you've never had to suffer Ryanair?

Some low-cost airlines are now charging for bags carried in the overhead lockers, never mind the extortionate rates for hold luggage. By contrast on the train I am allowed to take two suitcases (as heavy as I can lift) plus an item of hand luggage at no extra charge.

Getting up at 3am to catch an early flight (because that's when the cheap ones can afford slots) is not my idea of fun. My last train journey to Europe on the other hand included salmon au penne in a brasserie in Paris Gare de l'est for a sit-down lunch. Very civilised.

You do have children though @crackofdoom

Are you always planning to travel by train with your children abroad?

@crackofdoom

Oh well done DdraigGoch, for actually looking the figures up. I couldn't be arsed to, only to have more posters pop up downthread faux- innocently saying they've never seen any figures, but that they're sure flying isn't that much worse than driving or taking the train 🙄

The five minutes spent looking for my copy of "How Bad Are Bananas?" was well spent then.

(It was on the windowsill, where it must have been left after my last Mumsnet climate debate)

We’re going to Disney Paris in June, we decided to get the train was we thought it would be easier with the baby.

The eurostar is £482 return, flights and transport between home and the airport and our hotel and the airport is £232 all in.

We’re off to Sweden over easter two adults, one six year old and a baby (with seat) is £134 return. We can’t even get to manchester on the train that cheaply.

@Gowithme

Flight 368kg (per passenger) Efficient car 237kg (total) Large SUV 1,020kg (total) Train 64kg (per passenger)

Doesn't this suggest 4 people in an efficient car is better than them going on a train??

Trains are heavier because of how stringent the crash worthiness rules are. They also travel at higher speeds which reduces efficiency. So if you drive a Ford Mondeo as carefully as you can, with four passengers it will be marginally better per head.

That's for London-Glasgow though. Train travel in France for example uses electricity from a mostly-nuclear grid, unlike in the UK which depends heavily on gas turbines. Then there's the fact that most car journeys don't have a full car which gives the train the edge.

You're a stronger and more patient person than I DdraigGoch, is all I can say 🤦‍♀️
(as well as an impressively experienced train traveller!)

Nde how do you know I have children? I don't think I mentioned it on this thread? 🤔

No, we will not always travel by train. This summer we will probably go camping in France, in my 1.5l engine van. Then next year we might all go Interrailing.

They, too, need to eat every day, so I'm still not getting your point about food. Do you think food everywhere is as expensive as it is in airports? 😆 You know major train stations mostly have little supermarkets in, where you can buy inexpensive food- and drink!! that you can then take on the train, right??

@3luckystars

Ships are very bad for the environment too. Cruises are far worse than planes. (I know you are not going on a cruise)

Cruise ships are bad, yes because they are a floating version of Butlins. If you did travel by cargo ship on the other hand, economies of scale reduce your emissions to naff all. Remember that a massive container ship is by far the most efficient way to transport goods, even compared with rail.

Being a foot passenger on a ferry isn't too bad either. Like with the cargo ship, your impact is minimal compared with the contents of the vehicle deck.

@NdefH81

Thing is travelling alone - sure just grab whatever But if you travel with a partner, friend, family, children…. On a 4 day travelling.. eating together and enjoying it and sharing food is part of the experience

I'm not sure that having a sit-down lunch in La Consigne in Gare de l'est is "just grab whatever". It wasn't expensive. I'm sure that most stations have family-friendly cafés within a short walk.

(as well as an impressively experienced train traveller!)

I've barely started (batflu interrupted things).

I'm getting very frustrated therefore that train travel to Bosnia is currently impossible. I hate being defeated.

Anywhere else in Europe though, train travel is the way to do it. It takes a little longer, sure, but you really experience the countries you pass through properly.

Is it Bosnia where you wanted to go- that did have a good train service but it's all gone? I remember rural Croatia being pretty impossible too. Shame they didn't keep the Communist era railways up.

I think we need to do more to motivate not flying - I reckon it would be useful for workplaces to have schemes whereby you get 2-4 extra days' holiday in return for travelling by train or boat (so you'd have to show proof of booking and then get the extra days). Because as well as the price there is the extra time that it may take that can be offputting, especially when holiday allowance is tight.

@crackofdoom

Thanks for the information.

A friend trying to get from East Anglia to Cornwall discovered that it was cheaper and quicker to fly via Spain than to take the train.

If you have all the time in the world, it is easy to travel via train, ferry, coach

However, travelling long haul it is not so easy when you take into account time.

I assume that you are not going via P&O ferries?

I used to stay in a B&B which was 5 mins walk from the train station
It offered a discount for everyone arriving by train

@Mybestyear try going to the Isle of Wight! I think it's the most expensive per mile ferry trip in the world.

Any bit of research shows air travel is worse for the environment. Part of the reason is that the emissions are released in the sky rather than on the ground.

If we care about the well being and future safety and survival of our children and their children we should all be doing what the OP is doing or forego holidays abroad.

Drag0nFru2t no, not P and O, it's a local Greek ferry from a town in the South of Italy to a town near Athens.

I take the point about it being better for the environment not to travel far at all but I was seeing Greece as a nearby option tbh. I only realise now, seeing the replies, how dense and privileged that sounds. I've seen more than my fair share of the world as has my husband so maybe it is time to stop. The children can make their own decisions when they are independent.

Travel is the one thing I have never regretted spending a penny on though and one of my biggest passions so it is sad. And, if time permits and long, crazy train and bus trips are better than flights to Mallorca, Paris or other nearby places, maybe it is still possible to travel and be environmentally aware. Just every few years instead of every year maybe. Or maybe not, I don't know.

@crackofdoom

Is it Bosnia where you wanted to go- that did have a good train service but it's all gone? I remember rural Croatia being pretty impossible too. Shame they didn't keep the Communist era railways up.

Yes, as recently as 2014 they had a full timetable covering most of the country but in 2018 fell out with the Croatian Railways so trains stop short of each side of the border. That's only a 20 mile gap so bridgable by taxi. On top of that though, covid seems to have done away with most of what remained. Shame, they'd just got new airconditioned coaches for the cross-border journeys. Now there are just a handful of trains out of either Sarajevo or Banja Luka, with none connecting the two.

Getting to Croatia would be easy though, Zagreb has a sleeper from Zurich, and Split has a sleeper from Vienna. The Nightjet sleeper network (operated by the Austrian railways) is booming, with connections across Europe.